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Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 98: Provision of School Transport (13 Dec 2018)

Seán Fleming: We will only take it that far so, but are there regions where similar types of service are provided albeit with a variation of 20% or 30% compared with other regions? I am not asking our witnesses to name the regions, but does that happen? It must happen where there is strong competition.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 98: Provision of School Transport (13 Dec 2018)

Seán Fleming: No. The witnesses are missing my-----

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 98: Provision of School Transport (13 Dec 2018)

Seán Fleming: I am not asking about how Bus Éireann reaches a price. We know what the price is based on, but I have moved beyond that point. Having got its price via the proper procedure, are there regions that consistently have higher prices than other regions with similar routes? I will not ask the witnesses to name them, as they will claim that they might be giving a competitive advantage or...

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 98: Provision of School Transport (13 Dec 2018)

Seán Fleming: It took me a long time just to get one of the witnesses to say that.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 98: Provision of School Transport (13 Dec 2018)

Seán Fleming: We know why. I just want to know the outcome, that being, the figure. Can Bus Éireann send us information on the variations without identifying the regions? After asking my questions, I still have no sense of the variations in the average price that market conditions dictate in different regions. Some places must be below the average price while others must be above it. If the...

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 98: Provision of School Transport (13 Dec 2018)

Seán Fleming: We have a report before us. I just want to know the variation if the average price per student per mile travelled in one county is X, less than X in another county and more than X in a third. I am not asking the witnesses to disclose contractors or counties, as they might-----

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 98: Provision of School Transport (13 Dec 2018)

Seán Fleming: I am making it clear that we do not want to know the regions. Just give us the range in variations. It could all be in the same county for all I know. I am not asking the witnesses to breach any commercial sensitivity, but we cannot have a notion of whether there is value for money if we cannot even get comparative percentages.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 98: Provision of School Transport (13 Dec 2018)

Seán Fleming: Naturally.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 98: Provision of School Transport (13 Dec 2018)

Seán Fleming: Surely those are at least the minimum everywhere.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 98: Provision of School Transport (13 Dec 2018)

Seán Fleming: I accept that.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 98: Provision of School Transport (13 Dec 2018)

Seán Fleming: We were told that it was €1,800 in 2015. The witnesses might find my next question to be a weird one, but I am thinking of the youngsters on the buses. What is the longest single trip and what is the most time a student must spend on a bus? What is the longest route?

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 98: Provision of School Transport (13 Dec 2018)

Seán Fleming: Some routes are short.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 98: Provision of School Transport (13 Dec 2018)

Seán Fleming: We are all showing our age. Deputy Aylward mentioned his time on school buses. When I was on a school bus, I had to be dropped off at school at 8.15 a.m. because the same bus had to do another run.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 98: Provision of School Transport (13 Dec 2018)

Seán Fleming: The Department must know the maximum times.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 98: Provision of School Transport (13 Dec 2018)

Seán Fleming: Will the Department send us the maximum times and distances individually? It has guidelines. In the interests of safety, a child cannot be on a bus for an hour and a quarter in the morning and the same in the evening. Maybe it does happen.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 98: Provision of School Transport (13 Dec 2018)

Seán Fleming: The health and safety of students are factors and that is a long time. The average cost per pupil was approximately €1,800. What is the average cost for children with special educational needs? It must be a multiple of the other figure, given that there must be escorts, drivers, specific routes from door to school and so on. What is that average?

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 98: Provision of School Transport (13 Dec 2018)

Seán Fleming: I see that. Page 12 of the briefing note supplied to us mentions "STG". What does that mean?

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 98: Provision of School Transport (13 Dec 2018)

Seán Fleming: In 2017, that amounted to €2.754 million, escorts cost €25.371 million and the special educational needs contractors cost €63.668 million. That comes to more than €90 million for the 12,000 students, which is well over €7,000. All of those children with special needs must get to school, but where does the Department draw the line between offering the grant...

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 98: Provision of School Transport (13 Dec 2018)

Seán Fleming: Mr. Dolan just said the grant is offered. What are the minimum and maximum levels of grant? I thought those figures would be known.

Public Accounts Committee: Comptroller and Auditor General Special Report 98: Provision of School Transport (13 Dec 2018)

Seán Fleming: When I looked at the figure of €8,000 I was surprised to hear the individual grant is less than half of that. It has led to the situation where even when long distances are involved some parents feel the grant is not sufficient. If it is in the region of €3,000 but the Department is paying €8,000 for somebody to go with a contractor on a bus, I can understand the reason...