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Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Pearse Doherty: That is fine. The Minister is sitting down and saying that we will get it right the next time around and we will look at these ratios - that were not fit for purpose - and they will be changed. There is no doubt about it. The European Stability Mechanism, ESM, is already calling for that ratio of debt to GDP to be increased to 100%. On the answer to the question I put to the Minister, I...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Pearse Doherty: In fairness, I do not think there is that long way to go, with the Vice Chairman's indulgence. There are different views across Europe in relation to this. There is a large view out there that this is a very big missed opportunity. That view has been expressed by those in parliament in Italy with regard to the reforms that could have gone there. The point here is that we are dealing with...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Pearse Doherty: The letter of intent, which I mentioned earlier, is precisely the same document that the IMF uses for all of its programmes. In the IMF context at least, there is no less of an outcome of negotiations than memorandums of understanding, MOUs, in the ESM context. What is the difference here between the MOU that the ESM would have used in the past and the letter of intent, which will be used...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Pearse Doherty: The Minister mentioned that a letter of intent would also be subject to negotiation. Subject to negotiation between whom?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Pearse Doherty: Even though those measures would not involve corrective action as such.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Pearse Doherty: Will the Minister, as somebody who negotiated this on behalf of the Eurogroup, give me a practical example of how it will operate and the type of negotiation involved?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Pearse Doherty: Would it be up to the ESM to reject the letter of intent?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Pearse Doherty: Going back to the issue of the rules, the Minister mentioned the Stability and Growth Pact being under review. It is very likely that these rules will change. If they did not, it would be a bit mad. The ESM has called for the debt-to-GDP ratio ceiling to be raised to 100%. Hypothetically, if that new rule were to be applied, would it automatically be reflected in these criteria or would...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Pearse Doherty: Is the Minister saying that the board of governors can deviate from the Stability and Growth Pact and decide its own criteria?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Pearse Doherty: Does the board of governors have the legal ability to do that? That is the question, regardless of whether the Minister expects it to do so. Is the board compelled under law to set criteria that align with the Stability and Growth Pact that currently operates or does it have the ability to deviate from it under law?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Pearse Doherty: I thank the Minister. As for the enhanced conditions credit line, this still provides for a MOU as opposed to a letter of intent with the other credit line. That MOU will have to detail the conditionality attached to any financial assistance facility, and the context of the MOU will have to reflect the severity of weakness that needs to be addressed. The IMF will play a role in these...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Pearse Doherty: Yes.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Pearse Doherty: It would be naive to think that just because the IMF, European ministers and the ESM are involved in these negotiations, they will always have the interests of the member state seeking to access credit. They may genuinely think they have the interests of the member state, but they will be coming at it from their own position and views. We have experienced this. Was the Minister's...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Pearse Doherty: We have gone through the credit lines provided for in this legislation, which would be open for member states to apply to if they met criteria, which I believe to be outdated. In each of those credit lines conditionality is negotiated with the ESM and, in some cases, the IMF. Some of the conditionality will be corrective and some will relate to meeting the criteria. Let me just go back...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Pearse Doherty: We want to get the money back, whether it is from lending to a member state or the banks, but the money will be provided by the ESM through the Single Resolution Fund. There will be strict conditionality if a member state looks for it. That could be profound, especially in the context of a memorandum of understanding, MOU. What conditions will be placed on financial institutions in terms...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Pearse Doherty: It is clear the Minister was a lead negotiator on this. Did it ever cross his mind that we should impose conditionality on the banks, as we do on member states? He had a key and prominent role in negotiating this agreement.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Pearse Doherty: Member states will have to pay the money back with interest, just as the banks will have to ensure the Single Resolution Fund is made up of bank contributions. However, member states, using taxpayers' money, will step in if that is not sufficient at a point in time, but will be paid back. There are no structural or other conditions that could be applied to member states if they run into...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Pearse Doherty: How much of a contribution is Ireland making to the ESM? Is the Minister suggesting that the ESM will not lend to the SRF which will lend to banks?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Pearse Doherty: The money-----

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance (European Stability Mechanism and Single Resolution Fund) Bill 2021: Committee Stage (25 Nov 2021)

Pearse Doherty: -----by the member states which is then raised on the financial markets.

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