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Public Accounts Committee: Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report of the Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 15 - Collection of VAT on e-Commerce
Chapter 16 - Revenue's Suspension of Periodic Reviews of Tax Clearance Certificates
Chapter 17 - Overstatement of Certain Unallocated Tax Deposits
(8 Dec 2022)

Brian Stanley: I can understand that in the media-----

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report of the Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 15 - Collection of VAT on e-Commerce
Chapter 16 - Revenue's Suspension of Periodic Reviews of Tax Clearance Certificates
Chapter 17 - Overstatement of Certain Unallocated Tax Deposits
(8 Dec 2022)

Brian Stanley: I think Mr. Cody would have to accept that a greater number would, typically, be labourers on building sites, people driving courier vans or people working in the IT sector, who would be on an average wage.

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report of the Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 15 - Collection of VAT on e-Commerce
Chapter 16 - Revenue's Suspension of Periodic Reviews of Tax Clearance Certificates
Chapter 17 - Overstatement of Certain Unallocated Tax Deposits
(8 Dec 2022)

Brian Stanley: Okay. We have the criteria, which include the headings of mutuality of obligation, substitution, the enterprise test, integration and control. Moving on, I ask Mr. Cody the comment regarding the employment status investigation unit, which conducted 90 investigations in 2021. Mr. Cody is saying the level here is not that high. In those investigations the unit undertook, however, the level...

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report of the Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 15 - Collection of VAT on e-Commerce
Chapter 16 - Revenue's Suspension of Periodic Reviews of Tax Clearance Certificates
Chapter 17 - Overstatement of Certain Unallocated Tax Deposits
(8 Dec 2022)

Brian Stanley: I will come to this aspect in a moment. I thank the witnesses for those contributions. A level of 44% of misclassification in those investigated is still high and this is an issue of concern.

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report of the Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 15 - Collection of VAT on e-Commerce
Chapter 16 - Revenue's Suspension of Periodic Reviews of Tax Clearance Certificates
Chapter 17 - Overstatement of Certain Unallocated Tax Deposits
(8 Dec 2022)

Brian Stanley: I thank Mr. Cody for that figure. Turning to the self-employment rates in different sectors, what was particularly interesting here were those people self-employed and without employees. I understand that, for example, many plumbers will not have an employee. It will be the same with many IT engineers. Equally, and typically, a high number of self-employed people in agriculture, such as...

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report of the Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 15 - Collection of VAT on e-Commerce
Chapter 16 - Revenue's Suspension of Periodic Reviews of Tax Clearance Certificates
Chapter 17 - Overstatement of Certain Unallocated Tax Deposits
(8 Dec 2022)

Brian Stanley: Regarding the figures for August 2019 to June 2022, which is just under a three-year period, 110 investigations were commenced in media and journalism. There were 28 still ongoing when this report was put together. The number of investigations completed was 82 but the number of workers reclassified was 50. That is just in media and journalism. In construction, the number of investigations...

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report of the Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 15 - Collection of VAT on e-Commerce
Chapter 16 - Revenue's Suspension of Periodic Reviews of Tax Clearance Certificates
Chapter 17 - Overstatement of Certain Unallocated Tax Deposits
(8 Dec 2022)

Brian Stanley: I know that. Some of it is joint, with the Department of Social Protection.

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report of the Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 15 - Collection of VAT on e-Commerce
Chapter 16 - Revenue's Suspension of Periodic Reviews of Tax Clearance Certificates
Chapter 17 - Overstatement of Certain Unallocated Tax Deposits
(8 Dec 2022)

Brian Stanley: I accept that. I have just one more question, because I want to move on and let the other Deputies back in. In terms of the criteria, chapter 14 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report states, "To date, there has been no assessment of the extent to which the code has been used by workers or employers reviewing an employment status." With regard to the extent of misclassification of...

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report of the Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 15 - Collection of VAT on e-Commerce
Chapter 16 - Revenue's Suspension of Periodic Reviews of Tax Clearance Certificates
Chapter 17 - Overstatement of Certain Unallocated Tax Deposits
(8 Dec 2022)

Brian Stanley: The report goes on to state: ... neither [the Department nor Revenue] has estimated the related potential loss of contributions to the SIF. Random sampling and testing of the classification of a sufficient number of individuals would be required to accurately estimate the prevalence of misclassification of employment. This is what it comes down to. The recommendation is, "The Department...

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report of the Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 15 - Collection of VAT on e-Commerce
Chapter 16 - Revenue's Suspension of Periodic Reviews of Tax Clearance Certificates
Chapter 17 - Overstatement of Certain Unallocated Tax Deposits
(8 Dec 2022)

Brian Stanley: Yes, sorry. I wanted to ask if Mr. Cody agreed with this. The Accounting Officer stated, "These strategies are seen as the most effective use of resources". The Department is saying it is targeted. Does Mr. Cody agree with the Department about it being targeted, or does he see a role for what the Comptroller and Auditor General is suggesting, namely, random investigations?

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report of the Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 15 - Collection of VAT on e-Commerce
Chapter 16 - Revenue's Suspension of Periodic Reviews of Tax Clearance Certificates
Chapter 17 - Overstatement of Certain Unallocated Tax Deposits
(8 Dec 2022)

Brian Stanley: I am going to bring in the Comptroller and Auditor General in a minute.

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report of the Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 15 - Collection of VAT on e-Commerce
Chapter 16 - Revenue's Suspension of Periodic Reviews of Tax Clearance Certificates
Chapter 17 - Overstatement of Certain Unallocated Tax Deposits
(8 Dec 2022)

Brian Stanley: That brings me nicely to the final question I want to ask Mr. Cody. I understand the reason for targeted measures, because it is where you are likely to find problems. I get that and the Comptroller and Auditor General has alluded to that. Does Mr. Cody see a role for a limited number of targeted random investigations and examinations?

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report of the Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 15 - Collection of VAT on e-Commerce
Chapter 16 - Revenue's Suspension of Periodic Reviews of Tax Clearance Certificates
Chapter 17 - Overstatement of Certain Unallocated Tax Deposits
(8 Dec 2022)

Brian Stanley: It gives an opt-out clause. An employer does not have to provide the same level of-----

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report of the Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 15 - Collection of VAT on e-Commerce
Chapter 16 - Revenue's Suspension of Periodic Reviews of Tax Clearance Certificates
Chapter 17 - Overstatement of Certain Unallocated Tax Deposits
(8 Dec 2022)

Brian Stanley: Many times after the crash in 2010 and 2011, I met people who had been wrongly classified-----

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report of the Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 15 - Collection of VAT on e-Commerce
Chapter 16 - Revenue's Suspension of Periodic Reviews of Tax Clearance Certificates
Chapter 17 - Overstatement of Certain Unallocated Tax Deposits
(8 Dec 2022)

Brian Stanley: This is an important area and I am again raising it with Mr. Cody. It is important both from the point of view of workers' rights, as he outlined, and from that of PRSI contributions that people get the full benefits from employers' PRSI being paid and the benefits and statutory entitlements that come from that. Moreover, the loss of revenue to the State, that is, the national insurance pot...

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report of the Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 15 - Collection of VAT on e-Commerce
Chapter 16 - Revenue's Suspension of Periodic Reviews of Tax Clearance Certificates
Chapter 17 - Overstatement of Certain Unallocated Tax Deposits
(8 Dec 2022)

Brian Stanley: I understand that, but perhaps the Comptroller and Auditor General has it. That pot of money, in terms of pensions and other demands on it, is not where it should be and it needs to be built up. I raise this issue because if ten workers are affected by this, it is important we get it right.

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report of the Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 15 - Collection of VAT on e-Commerce
Chapter 16 - Revenue's Suspension of Periodic Reviews of Tax Clearance Certificates
Chapter 17 - Overstatement of Certain Unallocated Tax Deposits
(8 Dec 2022)

Brian Stanley: There is a PRSI loss, however.

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report of the Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 15 - Collection of VAT on e-Commerce
Chapter 16 - Revenue's Suspension of Periodic Reviews of Tax Clearance Certificates
Chapter 17 - Overstatement of Certain Unallocated Tax Deposits
(8 Dec 2022)

Brian Stanley: We will watch that case.

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report of the Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 15 - Collection of VAT on e-Commerce
Chapter 16 - Revenue's Suspension of Periodic Reviews of Tax Clearance Certificates
Chapter 17 - Overstatement of Certain Unallocated Tax Deposits
(8 Dec 2022)

Brian Stanley: Okay. Deputy Verona Murphy is next.

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 9 - Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report of the Office of the Revenue Commissioners
2021 Report on the Accounts of the Public Services of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Chapter 15 - Collection of VAT on e-Commerce
Chapter 16 - Revenue's Suspension of Periodic Reviews of Tax Clearance Certificates
Chapter 17 - Overstatement of Certain Unallocated Tax Deposits
(8 Dec 2022)

Brian Stanley: The Deputy's question concerned Rosslare-----

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