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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Contractual Arrangements for Public Sector Infrastructural Projects: Discussion (5 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: Directly with it.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Contractual Arrangements for Public Sector Infrastructural Projects: Discussion (5 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: Ms Walsh's contract with Sammon clearly specifies that the goods will not return to the ownership of-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Contractual Arrangements for Public Sector Infrastructural Projects: Discussion (5 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: This is a question for all of the delegates. According to the NDFA, there was an arrangement within the overall contract that each month it would ensure the subcontractors were paid. The people here are subcontractors to the subcontractors. Is that correct?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Contractual Arrangements for Public Sector Infrastructural Projects: Discussion (5 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: Why is it that the payments were stalled? Were the companies collecting each month or were they not being paid each and it all built up?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Contractual Arrangements for Public Sector Infrastructural Projects: Discussion (5 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: It is a stalling tactic.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Contractual Arrangements for Public Sector Infrastructural Projects: Discussion (5 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: Was that everyone's experience?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Contractual Arrangements for Public Sector Infrastructural Projects: Discussion (5 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: Mr. Hennebry has told us that he has 60 subcontractors who have not been paid and that figure is growing. He estimates that it currently represents a debt of €14 million for his company.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Contractual Arrangements for Public Sector Infrastructural Projects: Discussion (5 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: Is Mr. Hennebry in a position to quantify it?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Contractual Arrangements for Public Sector Infrastructural Projects: Discussion (5 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: If it can be done.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Contractual Arrangements for Public Sector Infrastructural Projects: Discussion (5 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: Someone else mentioned communication with the NDFA. Has it contacted the people here, rather than they having to contact it? What contact have they had with the Department of Education and Skills or the NDFA, if any?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Contractual Arrangements for Public Sector Infrastructural Projects: Discussion (5 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: Representatives of fhe NDFA were before the committee this week. I think the only outcome was that their attitude infuriated the members present; it certainly infuriated me. I am sure it also drove the delegates to the same conclusion that it was not fit for purpose. They said two things which I ask the delegates to consider. It was said that it has two reasons for its existence. One is...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Contractual Arrangements for Public Sector Infrastructural Projects: Discussion (5 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: We can do that. We might also seek clarification on the €250 million. We are trying to establish a focus here, to represent as best we can the views that we have heard today. Ms Siobhán Kelly wishes to say something. I will also call Senator Murnane O'Connor but first I will call on Deputy Deering.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Contractual Arrangements for Public Sector Infrastructural Projects: Discussion (5 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: I want to come to Ms Kelly and then Senator Murnane O'Connor. Deputy Pearse Doherty made a point at the previous meeting about investigations in the UK about KPMG.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Contractual Arrangements for Public Sector Infrastructural Projects: Discussion (5 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: We are going to get that document, which will be helpful to us. For the information of the witnesses, Mr. Cahillane told us at that meeting that the audit and how the analysis was approached was flawed. If that is the case, and taking into account what Deputy Doherty has told us about the parliamentary report in the UK, the Government has an obligation to pursue KPMG. That is something we...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Contractual Arrangements for Public Sector Infrastructural Projects: Discussion (5 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: I thank Ms Kelly.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Contractual Arrangements for Public Sector Infrastructural Projects: Discussion (5 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: The constituency is ours.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Contractual Arrangements for Public Sector Infrastructural Projects: Discussion (5 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: To clear up a point raised by Deputy Doherty at the last meeting, I was dealing with the certification process in a lot of detail. Correct me if I am wrong but Mr. Cahillane told us that they could certify it because they had someone on the ground on all of the sites examining the work as it was being done. Is that right or wrong?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Contractual Arrangements for Public Sector Infrastructural Projects: Discussion (5 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: This is from correspondence today. It states that a summary of the legal position as it understands it is outlined in the correspondence. It states that in signing its part of the certificate of compliance and completion, the assigned certifier will rely upon a number of ancillary certificates from others involved in the work. It states that while the majority of those ancillary...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Contractual Arrangements for Public Sector Infrastructural Projects: Discussion (5 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: We will pursue the matter with it.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Contractual Arrangements for Public Sector Infrastructural Projects: Discussion (5 Jul 2018)

John McGuinness: We will seek legal advice from services here. While we are making no commitment except that we will do our best within our remit to satisfy the subcontractors because that is as much as we can do today, we will not let them down. Deputy Deering asked about the way to resolve this. The way to resolve this is simple. It is to apply a bit of common sense to the work that was done and to...

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