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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: I am sorry for reading from my phone but I have just got an answer to a parliamentary question that was taken yesterday that asked the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform when it was told about this matter. It reads: "The first full assessment of the cost overrun and the reasons for it was received by my Department in the form of a report from the National Paediatric Hospital...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: The reply continues: "My Department reviewed the report and met with the Department of Health to discuss it on 23 November and made a formal submission to me on 26 November."

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: Why has the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform said that he was told on 9 November? I do not expect the Minister present to answer my question. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform must answer my question. How did the Minister present tell him on 9 November?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: How did the Department of Health inform the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform on 9 November?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: But the Minister was not.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: So we still do not know when the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform was officially informed. It was somewhere between 9 November and 19 November.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: Yes. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform said that he was informed on 9 November. That is what was said at a committee.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: I wish to ask the Minister or Mr. Breslin the following questions.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: The Department found out about this matter at the end of August. I accept that it could have been early September given the time of year and all of that. I have no issue with that. Did the Minister attempt to meet with or inform the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform between the end of August and September and 9 November? If so, when, and what happened?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: He did not. I was at the Committee of Public Accounts.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: No. We need a bit more-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: The Department knew formally in late August or early September. I am not worried about exactly which.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: The Department attempted by email, which I am sure it can publish and make available - I thank the Minister for nodding - to meet with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to discuss this. Is it correct that the Department requested formally meetings with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: Mr. Breslin said October.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: Why did the meeting not take place between the end of August and 9 November?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: September or whenever it was.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: Attempts were made in October by the Department of Health to say to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform that an issue was building and that the Departments needed to talk. It did not happen until 9 November.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: The Department of Health knew there was a significant overrun of potentially €200 million and an ongoing budgetary process. The Department will release correspondence to us that shows it attempted to sit down with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to discuss this issue whereby an official under Circular 12/2010 was obliged to tell his or her own Minister and Secretary...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: I agree. I am just bringing that in from my own business.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
Quarterly Update on Health Issues: Discussion
(6 Feb 2019)

Alan Kelly: I accept what the Minister said about the €61 million in 2017 and those issues. I will go through some minutes that would raise other concerns relating to other issues. We know that this is a serious escalation. The Minister told us that he was shocked in late August, and, to be polite, "annoyed". He had budget negotiations going on in parallel. He looked for meetings with the...

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