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Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Matt Carthy: "Yes" is the answer to the question I put. The Chairman asked this question earlier. Did it not strike anyone as sensible to ensure, contractually, that these pay hikes would not be applicable to this position given its unique and bizarre nature and the fact we had already, through the Minister's good offices, approved an €81,000 pay hike? Did nobody say the position did not need...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Matt Carthy: It strikes me that the agreement is collective when it suits and is an individual arrangement when it does not. The Minister was asked earlier about the position of waiving salaries and he mentioned that I, as a Deputy, will get an increase at some stage this year. I will waive it, in the same way the Minister does in respect of a portion of his salary. He said something that I thought was...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Matt Carthy: I appreciate that.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Matt Carthy: Okay, so taking that on board, and on the understanding that people make their own personal decisions in that regard, this was a peculiar decision. The Government press office and the press office of the Department of Health issued a statement on the day of Mr. Watt’s appointment as permanent Secretary General in the Department of Health. The statement that was issued through a...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Matt Carthy: I did not ask the Minister to call on anybody; I just asked if he thought it would be helpful. I note his answer. Will you indulge me, Chair, to ask questions on different matters or are other members seeking to come in?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Matt Carthy: The Government previously revised pay rates for CEOs of State bodies, including Horse Racing Ireland, HRI. Does the Minister think that was a mistake, considering that he has essentially reversed that decision with the most recent appointment of the new chief executive of HRI?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Matt Carthy: Previously, it was agreed that the salary for the new position, when it became available would be approximately €137,000. The package that was signed off on is closer to €200,000. The Minister mentioned that the Department examined a business case. Is it correct that the business case was compiled by Horse Racing Ireland itself?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Matt Carthy: So NewERA-----

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Matt Carthy: Did NewERA compile its own business case on this issue?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Matt Carthy: That is interesting news to me, because my understanding was that the business case was compiled by HRI itself. If it was compiled by NewERA, is it possible for this committee to receive a copy of the business case?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Matt Carthy: That would be welcome, because commercial sensitivity is mentioned quite a bit in relation to some State bodies that have no commercial competitor, so it often strikes me as a bit strange. I want to ask a few very brief questions on the freedom of information unit that lies within the Minister’s Department. How much funding did it receive last year and what is the estimated budget...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Matt Carthy: Does the Minister have an idea about the percentage increase or is it standstill funding?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Matt Carthy: Yes. I am talking about the policy itself. I note the Minister’s remarks about the review that is ongoing. In a bid to be helpful, my own party colleague, Deputy Mairéad Farrell, has published legislation in this regard. I understand it is being brought to the Dáil tomorrow evening. Will the Minister support the legislation?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Matt Carthy: Time will be the judge of that. There have been a number of high-profile incidents where Ministers, in particular, have not been following the guidelines set out in the Freedom of Information Act 2014, particularly with regard to backchannels of communication or the deletion of private messages. The Minister's Department sets guidance that I believe dates back to 2015, which states that...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Matt Carthy: This is my final question. It is with regard to current policy. Are there policy guidelines in place specifically dealing with the use of private messaging services, whether it be text message, WhatsApp or other such services, by members of Government in their conduct of Government business? If so, where is that guidance or policy set out?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Matt Carthy: What happens then if a Minister, for example, is not compliant and deletes something he or she was obliged to retain under the Freedom of Information Acts and the guidelines that have been set down?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Matt Carthy: I have one very last question. What is that sanction?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Matt Carthy: That is fine.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

Matt Carthy: I thank the Chairman for his indulgence.

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate: Pigmeat Sector (1 Feb 2022)

Matt Carthy: I saw reported in one media outlet that in 1986, what pig farmers were receiving equated to €1.40 per kilo. Today, 36 years later, they get €1.42, which puts in very stark terms the broader challenge faced by this sector, like many of our other agricultural sectors. I welcome the initiatives the Minister has taken to date, but we now require clear resolve in terms of how we...

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