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Public Accounts Committee: HIQA: Governance and Management of Conflict of Interest Issues (19 Oct 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: Does it explicitly say that Mr. McEnery interfaces with the NTPF to negotiate prices for homes participating in the fair deal scheme?

Public Accounts Committee: HIQA: Governance and Management of Conflict of Interest Issues (19 Oct 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: No, it does not.

Public Accounts Committee: HIQA: Governance and Management of Conflict of Interest Issues (19 Oct 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: I thank Mr. McEnery.

Public Accounts Committee: HIQA: Governance and Management of Conflict of Interest Issues (19 Oct 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: I think it was rather unclear, but we have now established that it is Mr. McEnery's function to carry out these negotiations. In his opening statement he referred to the fact that he speaks at many conferences. I do not doubt that he does. The October meeting, however, was not a conference.

Public Accounts Committee: HIQA: Governance and Management of Conflict of Interest Issues (19 Oct 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: We have established that, but it was not a conference.

Public Accounts Committee: HIQA: Governance and Management of Conflict of Interest Issues (19 Oct 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: Mr. Daly invited Mr. McEnery to the meeting and Mr. McEnery came along. Who was at the meeting in addition to operators?

Public Accounts Committee: HIQA: Governance and Management of Conflict of Interest Issues (19 Oct 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: Who might they have been?

Public Accounts Committee: HIQA: Governance and Management of Conflict of Interest Issues (19 Oct 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: What was the nature of the conversation? Mr. McEnery knows better than anyone that negotiations between individual nursing homes and the NTPF must happen on an individual basis. Is that not right?

Public Accounts Committee: HIQA: Governance and Management of Conflict of Interest Issues (19 Oct 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: There is a very good reason for that, is there not?

Public Accounts Committee: HIQA: Governance and Management of Conflict of Interest Issues (19 Oct 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: What is that reason?

Public Accounts Committee: HIQA: Governance and Management of Conflict of Interest Issues (19 Oct 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: It is in order to respect and obey competition law. Of course, that would absolutely rule out any collective actions which would influence price. Is that not right?

Public Accounts Committee: HIQA: Governance and Management of Conflict of Interest Issues (19 Oct 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: Price fixing.

Public Accounts Committee: HIQA: Governance and Management of Conflict of Interest Issues (19 Oct 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: Exactly. Mr. McEnery has given us an account of what he said at this meeting and so on, which I will come to. Is it not the case that the meeting included discussions on the kind of influence which could be leveraged on the NTPF and the Minister in respect of the quantum of funding for the fair deal scheme and so on? Doe Mr. McEnery recall that?

Public Accounts Committee: HIQA: Governance and Management of Conflict of Interest Issues (19 Oct 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: Does Mr. McEnery recall discussions around increases in individual contributions to nursing homes from residents or their families?

Public Accounts Committee: HIQA: Governance and Management of Conflict of Interest Issues (19 Oct 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: Does Mr. McEnery accept that any move to act in a collective way or to use that type of leverage would fall foul of competition law?

Public Accounts Committee: HIQA: Governance and Management of Conflict of Interest Issues (19 Oct 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: Was Mr. McEnery alarmed, astounded or worried when that type of conversation emerged around him?

Public Accounts Committee: HIQA: Governance and Management of Conflict of Interest Issues (19 Oct 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: It certainly would be. Would it not be very troubling if the chairman of the board of HIQA, the regulator for nursing homes, was in the middle of a conversation about suggestions or ideas in respect of such collective leveraging? That would be deeply disturbing, would it not?

Public Accounts Committee: HIQA: Governance and Management of Conflict of Interest Issues (19 Oct 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: Mr. McEnery says that he discussed and addressed financial matters.

Public Accounts Committee: HIQA: Governance and Management of Conflict of Interest Issues (19 Oct 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: Is he absolutely sure that is his recollection of the meeting?

Public Accounts Committee: HIQA: Governance and Management of Conflict of Interest Issues (19 Oct 2017)

Mary Lou McDonald: Mr. McEnery is aware that the Chairman has alluded to the fact that we are in receipt of the minutes of that meeting. We are not allowed to delve into the precise detail of them, but I have read them.

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