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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: I thank the Chair. I offer best wishes to everyone on the committee for the new year. I thank the committee for its invitation to attend. I will make some opening points on the reasons for the invitation. I will not go through my statement in full but pick out a few key points so that we can move to a discussion. I am joined by my officials Mr. Joe Cullen, principal officer with...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: We gave consideration as to whether further conditionality would be merited for access to the scheme, beyond where we were with turnover and tax compliance. I decided when we were introducing the employment wage subsidy scheme, EWSS, that this would not be appropriate. The reason was that I anticipated a very low level of dividend payments, if any, being made across the period. I also had...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: No, it was for different reasons. The first one was that at that point in time we had the reasons the Deputy might well imagine. There was a very low expectation of dividends being paid in the first place. This is because at each point we revised the EWSS we were doing so at moments of great economic difficulty. We moved the temporary wage subsidy scheme, TWSS, into the EWSS because of...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: As I have said before, it is not in the spirit of the way in which the scheme was both launched and the way in which the overwhelming majority of employers have been complying with it. However, I will only make changes with the scheme if I am confident it does not interfere with the retention of employment, and profitability is important for the retention of employment given my intention to...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: I do not currently have any evidence of this being breached either in a conspicuous or very broad way. Again, it is possible there would be businesses that were on this scheme that may have given some wage increases to some people who work there during the duration but it is unlikely.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: It is something we will give consideration to. I await the outcome of the hearing the Deputy has made reference to before I give any further consideration to what could be done at that point. The measures I am committed to bringing in are ones that overall will increase transparency and information on the matter. I will consider whether further action is needed at the conclusion of the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: I briefly make the point to the Deputy that my mindset on many of these supports is not for their long-term maintenance. If he looks at the EWSS, at the moment one worker in 12 in our country is now on that scheme. At the same time, we have many employers that cannot get the staff and the workers they need. Again, I should be open with the Deputy that more than the conditionality of access...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: That is correct and a fair summary of it. That goes back to the Deputy's earlier question to me on whether further action would be merited in relation to it. As I have said, it is not the intention of these supports that were brought in to subsidise the level of insurance payments that are being made. However, these are issues that need to be considered in the context of the point he...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: I do not have that information with me. I will have to see whether there are reasons of commercial sensitivity that would preclude me from sharing that now. If there are then there will be another point at which I can share the information with the Deputy. If I can share it more quickly than that I will.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: I will indeed. Deputy Barry and other Deputies very frequently put parliamentary questions regarding legal and professional fees that are paid for the provision of services to the Department of Finance. Once we move beyond the period of any commercial sensitivity reasons for not sharing that information we share it. If there are no commercial reasons stopping me from sharing the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: The Deputy's description of what the Government is doing, in some ways, is correct. It is not my intention that the State would remain the largest shareholder of AIB in the long term. My view is that we should be in a position where the bank is privately owned. Before we get to that point, we need to be in a position where the State is no longer the majority shareholder. We will have...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: At the moment, we are a fair bit off both. We still own in excess of 70% of AIB. There are quite a few bridges to cross before we get anywhere near the State no longer being the largest shareholder in the bank. There will be many more decisions required after that before the bank is in private ownership. It is very difficult for me to put a timeframe on that. It depends on so many...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: Were I to indicate in that regard, it would give a public indication of the future decisions I am going to make in regard to the State's share in that bank. It is possible that further decisions could be made that would lead to a reduction in the shareholding of the bank. As to whether we would get to below 50%, I prefer not to speculate on that for now given that we are currently involved...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: If the Deputy will bear with me for a moment, I will ask my officials to get the information on how much has been repaid. As to whether any companies have indicated an intention to do that again in the future, I am not currently aware of it. I should emphasise - I know the Deputy will be aware of this - that would be something they would indicate to the Revenue Commissioners rather than to...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: No, it would be a bit broader than that. It would be some employers who repaid the subsidy due to ineligibility, that is, they either reached a view that they were ineligible or, in conjunction with the Revenue Commissioners, that view was reached, and some employers who voluntarily repaid the subsidy. For example, there are employers that continue to meet the Revenue threshold of being 30%...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: I do not have that information available to me. It may not be available because when employers made a decision to return a payment, they were not required to indicate to the Revenue why they did so. I will inquire as to whether I can shed any further light on the question, but my expectation is that I will not be able to do so. When money was returned to Revenue, employers were not...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: Given that the operation of the Revenue Commissioners is statutorily independent of the Minister for Finance, I do not believe it would be appropriate for me to be directing Revenue as to what type of reports or audits it should do. If information becomes available via the Revenue Commissioners through its normal reporting procedures that is of help in seeking to understand this matter, that...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: I differ strongly from Deputy Nash in one respect. He referred to the transfer of public money into private hands but that was done with the purpose of keeping people in work. There are hundreds of thousands of people who have a job today who would not have one without the EWSS. In fairness to Deputy Nash and the Labour Party, they have recognised that by their support for the legislation....

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: The level of pay or recognition that AIB staff receive is a matter for the board of AIB rather than for the shareholder. Whether it is a bank or any other organisation, how the staff are paid is a matter for the board of the company. That said, I want to acknowledge that those who have worked in the front lines of our banks have played a really valuable role during this pandemic. Lots of...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Covid-19 Payments and the Sale of AIB shares: Minister for Finance (19 Jan 2022)

Paschal Donohoe: I understand and accept the point Deputy Richmond makes. When we pick any performance threshold for being able to move on to what is a very valuable subsidy programme, there will always be some businesses that are just outside that threshold. I know that at the end of last year there were companies that traded very well from September into December. Things changed at the end of December...

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