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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

David Cullinane: That is another problem. Not only was the Minister not aware, not only was this committee not aware, not only was the public not aware, but I imagine the actual body that would need to provide the funding was also not aware of the letter Mr. Watt sent to Trinity.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

David Cullinane: With respect, the details are in the letter Mr. Watt sent. I want to read the letter that Mr. Watt sent so that we are all clear of what it is. It states: Under the proposed agreement, the Department of Health commits to... Make an annual ring-fenced allocation of €2M for the duration of the secondment, to be administered through the Health Research Board, a body under the aegis of...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

David Cullinane: I must come back in here.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

David Cullinane: I have to come back in before my time is up, with respect to Mr. Watt.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

David Cullinane: With respect, Mr. Watt is not getting this at all. He lost the run of himself. I am currently reading a book entitled Pandemonium. I am sure he will at some time read it himself. It seems officials in the Department described him as "Minister Watt". To many people, it seems he is the one making decisions, rather than the Minister for Health doing so. He cannot say that he was going to...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

David Cullinane: I am not going to take up any more time. I want to say one final thing.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

David Cullinane: I will make a final comment, if I may. Mr. Watt is not going to take me for a fool.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

David Cullinane: I ask Mr. Watt to bear with me. Of course, the Government is going to commit, in general terms, funding to public health. Of course, that is the case. Mr. Watt cannot then conflate that with him running around the place sending letters to Trinity College committing funding without any ministerial approval. The very fact that he does not get that smacks of arrogance, it must be said, and...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

David Cullinane: I welcome the witnesses. I wish Dr. Holohan well in his retirement. When the committee met earlier in private session, members wished him well. I want to publicly do likewise.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

David Cullinane: When he was on "Morning Ireland" was he aware of the €2 million annual funding?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

David Cullinane: I wish to speak about the letter Mr. Watt sent to Trinity. I want to reflect accurately and fairly his characterisation of the process regarding the letter. It is his contention that, while the letter does not read "subject to approval", the funding element of €2 million would have needed approval and the letter was setting out the bones of the objective in terms of funding this...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

David Cullinane: When responding to Deputy Shortall, Mr. Watt stated that this would have been additional funding. Was that not the intention?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

David Cullinane: As Mr. Watt mentioned in his opening statement, that would have been subject to the Estimates process later in the year. When would that have been?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

David Cullinane: What time period? When Mr. Watt speaks about approval as part of the Estimates process, to what part of the year is he referring?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

David Cullinane: Around September or October. It would certainly be by October.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

David Cullinane: It would have been around that time. Mr. Watt wrote in his letter: "the purpose of this letter is to propose an agreement to the secondment of Dr Tony Holohan to Trinity College Dublin in this regard." He also wrote: "I anticipate that these [the details of the agreement] will be finalised within the time frames set out below." The letter then set out the details, which included a...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

David Cullinane: With respect, Mr. Watt is missing the point. The contention is that there was no proper scrutiny of this process. There was no ministerial or governmental approval. Mr. Watt's contention is that that would have come as part of the Estimates process, but that would have been after the event. I did not write this letter - Mr. Watt did. In his letter, he set out that Dr. Holohan was to have...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

David Cullinane: Mr. Watt was asking Trinity College to approve the terms described in this letter by 31 March. The CMO was to be in his new role from 1 July. However, the democratic oversight and approval that Mr. Watt spoke about would not have come until afterwards.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

David Cullinane: People are trying to make reasonable assumptions and form an opinion based on what they see before them, and what they see before them in this letter is very clear and specific in terms of its details, commitments and timeframes. At no point does it say "subject to ministerial approval" or "subject to an Estimates process". I do not know whether the Health Research Board would have needed...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Proposed Appointment of Chief Medical Officer to a Role at a Higher Education Institution: Discussion (4 May 2022)

David Cullinane: We have been across this already. With respect, that is not the question I asked Mr. Watt. I ask Mr. Watt to bear with me. I am not trying to be unfair. I asked him a direct question. We have been through all of that, that the Minister did not have the full details. We do not need to go back over that ground again. The Minister obviously became aware of the details once that letter...

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