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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Bogus Self-Employment: Discussion (Resumed) (5 Dec 2019)

Alice-Mary Higgins: I will return to the changes in 2001 and what steps might have been taken to redress the problems in the 1990s. First I turn to Mr. Duggan and refer to the principles on which decisions are being made. He mentioned the principle of mutual obligation. There is a lot of clarity around how the scope unit makes decisions and there is transparency. Mr. Duggan suggested the figures were not...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Bogus Self-Employment: Discussion (Resumed) (5 Dec 2019)

Alice-Mary Higgins: Mr. Duggan mentioned on the guidance issue that the code may be put on a statutory basis next year. Will that statutory basis also address the corporate structures such as, for example, the aviation industry? We heard very strong testimony in the course of the hearings of this committee of the use of what were effectively false company structures to hide the fact of people being...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Bogus Self-Employment: Discussion (Resumed) (5 Dec 2019)

Alice-Mary Higgins: As to follow-up in cases where people are found to be mis-classified - we are aware that there were inspections by Revenue in the construction and other sectors - what steps have been taken by the Department in reclaiming PRSI, either itself or in co-operation with Revenue, to ensure that we have proper compliance? Such widespread practices are a huge loss to the State. As an example of...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Bogus Self-Employment: Discussion (Resumed) (5 Dec 2019)

Alice-Mary Higgins: Is it followed up retrospectively?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Bogus Self-Employment: Discussion (Resumed) (5 Dec 2019)

Alice-Mary Higgins: I will follow up on a question with Ms Gordon and then ask a wider question. On those cases that were taking place between the test cases of 1993-1994 and the decision to move to a different approach in 2001, were steps taken in cases and decisions that may have been made - it seems that decisions clearly were made judging from the account of the Secretary General of 2000 - on the basis...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Bogus Self-Employment: Discussion (Resumed) (5 Dec 2019)

Alice-Mary Higgins: Mr. Duggan can answer if he wishes.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Bogus Self-Employment: Discussion (Resumed) (5 Dec 2019)

Alice-Mary Higgins: If somebody has already exhausted those options within the period with the Department, can the person re-use sections 317 and 318?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Bogus Self-Employment: Discussion (Resumed) (5 Dec 2019)

Alice-Mary Higgins: Does Ms Gordon not think that steps might perhaps need to be taken if there was a concern in law that was held across the Department, given that it was the view of the Secretary General at the highest level between 1995 and 2001 that those who may have exhausted the decision process at the time but later, even through the work of the employment status, have been determined to be correct in...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Bogus Self-Employment: Discussion (Resumed) (5 Dec 2019)

Alice-Mary Higgins: I am sorry but that does contradict the statement. Mr. Duggan has been consistent with the narrative previously but that is inconsistent. The Secretary General said in October 2000 that some couriers consider that they are self-employed while others regard themselves as employees. In order to resolve the matter, a number of representative test cases were selected in 1993 and 1994 for...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Bogus Self-Employment: Discussion (Resumed) (5 Dec 2019)

Alice-Mary Higgins: It clearly is.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Bogus Self-Employment: Discussion (Resumed) (5 Dec 2019)

Alice-Mary Higgins: That is true now, but I am talking about the period between-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Bogus Self-Employment: Discussion (Resumed) (5 Dec 2019)

Alice-Mary Higgins: I know, but I am not satisfied with the answer.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Bogus Self-Employment: Discussion (Resumed) (5 Dec 2019)

Alice-Mary Higgins: I have clearly described the test cases. Could Ms Gordon respond to the question on the key principles?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Bogus Self-Employment: Discussion (Resumed) (5 Dec 2019)

Alice-Mary Higgins: Yes, in an appeal.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Bogus Self-Employment: Discussion (Resumed) (5 Dec 2019)

Alice-Mary Higgins: They are very similar criteria to the scope unit's.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Bogus Self-Employment: Discussion (Resumed) (5 Dec 2019)

Alice-Mary Higgins: There is such a degree of change in the decisions. There is quite a high degree in terms of successful appeals in this area. That is why I am surprised that it is exactly the same criteria. I do not wish to ask for the individual sector but we have looked at two areas and Ms Gordon mentioned one of them. I refer to aviation and the courier industry. They are two areas in which there...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Bogus Self-Employment: Discussion (Resumed) (5 Dec 2019)

Alice-Mary Higgins: This is my final question. It is on the role of the courts. Does Ms Gordon see a key role for the courts? One of the proposals that was put to the committee is that there may, potentially, be a better role for the courts. What does Ms Gordon think of that as an alternative route?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Bogus Self-Employment: Discussion (Resumed) (5 Dec 2019)

Alice-Mary Higgins: My last question is to Mr. Duggan. Reference was made to the fear among persons who may be bogus self-employed. What steps is the Department taking to address the issue of fear in the sector and the identified concern of the scope section?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection: Bogus Self-Employment: Discussion (Resumed) (5 Dec 2019)

Alice-Mary Higgins: Fear is the specific issue.

Seanad: An tOrd Gnó - Order of Business (4 Dec 2019)

Alice-Mary Higgins: I endorse the call for a debate on cycling. If the Minister comes in, he might also ensure that he is briefed on cycling to school and the equality issues in cycling because very few girls are cycling. There has been a 90% drop in girls cycling to school in Ireland, which is very unfortunate. I also join Senator Feighan in welcoming the vote by the US House of Representatives. It is...

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