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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Public Expenditure and Reform Vote: Discussion with Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (17 Oct 2012)

Stephen Donnelly: Does the Minister believe 2%-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Public Expenditure and Reform Vote: Discussion with Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (17 Oct 2012)

Stephen Donnelly: I have a supplementary question. I will be very brief. Does the Minister think 2% for health is too low?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Public Expenditure and Reform Vote: Discussion with Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (17 Oct 2012)

Stephen Donnelly: I understand. My question relates specifically to whether the Minister thinks 2% is about right or too low.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Public Expenditure and Reform Vote: Discussion with Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (17 Oct 2012)

Stephen Donnelly: I will quickly give the Minister some ideas.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Public Expenditure and Reform Vote: Discussion with Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (17 Oct 2012)

Stephen Donnelly: I am sure we will endeavour to come to this meeting next year with opinions and I hope the Minister will also because, in fairness, he has not come with a view either.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Public Expenditure and Reform Vote: Discussion with Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (17 Oct 2012)

Stephen Donnelly: However, arguably the Minister should also come with a view. On increments, the Minister mentioned the two 7% cuts that public sector workers have taken. Analysis by Dan O'Brien last year showed that on average - obviously it is not for everyone because not everyone gets increments - all of those two cuts had been more than given back in cumulative years of increment payments.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Public Expenditure and Reform Vote: Discussion with Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (17 Oct 2012)

Stephen Donnelly: That was what the analysis stated.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Public Expenditure and Reform Vote: Discussion with Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (17 Oct 2012)

Stephen Donnelly: It is cumulative increments and not just this year.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Public Expenditure and Reform Vote: Discussion with Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (17 Oct 2012)

Stephen Donnelly: No. By stopping increments and not paying them for several years, it is possible to add up the benefit of not paying them for several years. If it is €170 million next year and €250 million this year, the total saved is €420 million.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Public Expenditure and Reform Vote: Discussion with Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (17 Oct 2012)

Stephen Donnelly: It is not. It is making the point that-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Public Expenditure and Reform Vote: Discussion with Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (17 Oct 2012)

Stephen Donnelly: No, but one can add up the €170 million in savings we get year on year.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Public Expenditure and Reform Vote: Discussion with Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (17 Oct 2012)

Stephen Donnelly: Okay, fine. Last year it was €250 million. If that was done for four years it would be €1 billion. It is pretty straightforward. Also on increments, there is considerable talk about those at the higher end and that people on lower wages should not be hit on increments. While that may be true in some cases, it is not necessarily true for new entrants. Let us consider a...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Public Expenditure and Reform Vote: Discussion with Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (17 Oct 2012)

Stephen Donnelly: My understanding of the purpose of this session, therefore, is different. In the various tables provided, there are identified shortfalls compared with the figures in the comprehensive review of expenditure of €19 million. Were we to continue next year as we are this year and given the ceiling set for next year, the shortfall will be €19 million. Is that distributed across...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Public Expenditure and Reform Vote: Discussion with Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (17 Oct 2012)

Stephen Donnelly: I do not mean to be difficult but why then do we have these figures?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Public Expenditure and Reform Vote: Discussion with Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (17 Oct 2012)

Stephen Donnelly: The figures say the Minister needs to find an additional €19 million in savings. If one adds up everything in column E, additional savings required, one gets €19 million.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Public Expenditure and Reform Vote: Discussion with Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (17 Oct 2012)

Stephen Donnelly: It is the Minister's document.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Public Expenditure and Reform Vote: Discussion with Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (17 Oct 2012)

Stephen Donnelly: The Minister has allocated that amount across the Votes. Is that an estimate or a random distribution?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Public Expenditure and Reform Vote: Discussion with Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (17 Oct 2012)

Stephen Donnelly: Table 1 refers to the Department. If it carries on as per this year, it will cost €62 million to run next year, but the target in the CRE is €39 million, which means the Minister must find €2 million.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Public Expenditure and Reform Vote: Discussion with Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (17 Oct 2012)

Stephen Donnelly: Must the Minister find that or is it just indicative?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Public Expenditure and Reform Vote: Discussion with Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (17 Oct 2012)

Stephen Donnelly: They do not seem like terribly useful numbers in that event. Let me give the Minister a few ideas. My understanding was if we were to examine the Department's Estimates, the Minister would say that to meet his 2013 target, he would need to cut by €2.382 million, that this reduction would be extremely risky for the Department to do and that he was not proposing we do that.

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