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Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

James Geoghegan: We are going to be waiting a long time for the law to pass. In the meantime, however, there could be adults in Tusla-run centres for unaccompanied minors roaming with other children. In light of what has just taken place, is this not an absolute priority for the Department to ensure there are not adults mixing with unaccompanied children in centres, which have increased quite dramatically...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

James Geoghegan: However, the function is within the Department. Am I wrong in that?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

James Geoghegan: There seems to be a problem in the process. The Tusla representatives have set it out to us. I am putting to Ms McPhillips what they have said to us.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

James Geoghegan: It seems to be significant. I will have to move on as my time is short. I can come back to this.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

James Geoghegan: If Ms McPhillips does not mind, I want to finish my questions to Mr. Delaney. How many international protection applicants who have been granted refugee status currently reside in IPAS centres?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

James Geoghegan: There are 5,000 people who have been granted status and are living in international protection accommodation centres. Mr. Delaney mentioned that this was a factor in Ireland's costs being larger than comparator European countries. What can be done in respect of that issue?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

James Geoghegan: What is the average duration of stay of the 5,000 post being granted status?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

James Geoghegan: I would ask the Department to share that information with us.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

James Geoghegan: Although I do not want to misquote him, I think Mr. Delaney said something extraordinary when he was being asked by Deputy Neville about the beneficial ownership of companies that the Department is contracting with, and how the Department knows there is no criminality involved. Mr. Delaney pointed him to the Companies Registration Office. He is hardly suggesting that a company having been...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

James Geoghegan: When Mr. Delaney refers to “a person”, who would that person be?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

James Geoghegan: Does every company owner that the Department has established to be an owner have to carry out what Mr. Delaney describes as a personal declaration?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

James Geoghegan: Is that done under the Garda National Vetting Bureau? Are they vetted or what happens?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

James Geoghegan: That is a declaration stating they are not involved in criminality.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

James Geoghegan: I thank the witnesses for staying on and answering the questions. I will go back to Ms McPhillips because I want to clarify a point. Gerry Hone, who is the national director of service and integration in Tusla, when appearing before the justice committee, stated: "Under current legislation, the duty to undertake age assessments rests with the International Protection Office". Unless I am...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

James Geoghegan: Hang on.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

James Geoghegan: Ms McPhillips is not seriously telling me that everybody here, that is, those who are responsible for the IPO process, do not know what the legal position is as to who is responsible for assessing the age of a child who enters this country seeking asylum. There is nobody in this room right now who knows the legal position.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

James Geoghegan: I am not putting this on. I am absolutely astonished that there is no one in this room responsible for dealing with every single international protection applicant who comes into this State and that Ms McPhillips does not know the legal position as to whether her Department may or may not have a legal responsibility to carry out an age assessment, when she has already acknowledged that this...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

James Geoghegan: When I asked these questions, Mr. O’Sullivan acknowledged there was a delay of some description. Could he elaborate on what his assessment is?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

James Geoghegan: Are there any circumstances where the International Protection Office currently carries out age assessments on unaccompanied minors who seek international protection in Ireland?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2024
Vote 21 - Prisons
Vote 24 - Justice
Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth - Programme E Expenditure
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 9 - Assessing Cyber Security in the Public Sector
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2024
Chapter 9 - Criminal Justice Operational Hubs
Chapter 10 - Management of International Protection Accommodation Contracts
(23 Oct 2025)

James Geoghegan: In the heads of Bill, it is the intention that this-----

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