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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Arts, Media, Communications, Culture and Sport: Arts Council Grant Management IT System: Discussion (Resumed) (1 Jul 2025)

Alan Kelly: Before Senator Ahearn comes in, I am looking for clarification on a matter. I did not want to interrupt Mr. Ó Coigligh. With regard to all contracts, was the former director in place or were some of the contracts not signed before that, from memory? In fairness, I did not want to be incorrect. I do not think that statement is totally accurate but not deliberately so. I want to be...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Arts, Media, Communications, Culture and Sport: Arts Council Grant Management IT System: Discussion (Resumed) (1 Jul 2025)

Alan Kelly: I thought that. I wanted to make that correction. Second, I am looking for another clarification. On the assistant principal posts, were there not two assistant principal posts?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Arts, Media, Communications, Culture and Sport: Arts Council Grant Management IT System: Discussion (Resumed) (1 Jul 2025)

Alan Kelly: I wanted to make sure we were on the same page on both of those issues. There is one other matter, but I will come back to it. Senator Ahearn is next.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Arts, Media, Communications, Culture and Sport: Arts Council Grant Management IT System: Discussion (Resumed) (1 Jul 2025)

Alan Kelly: To clarify, we are not wronging anyone because we have been down this road already. When the officials told the Department to cease, had that work been commissioned before then?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Arts, Media, Communications, Culture and Sport: Arts Council Grant Management IT System: Discussion (Resumed) (1 Jul 2025)

Alan Kelly: And did they specifically ask whether there were any legacy issues? Probably not.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Arts, Media, Communications, Culture and Sport: Arts Council Grant Management IT System: Discussion (Resumed) (1 Jul 2025)

Alan Kelly: Now Senator-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Arts, Media, Communications, Culture and Sport: Arts Council Grant Management IT System: Discussion (Resumed) (1 Jul 2025)

Alan Kelly: We have to be careful there with use of language. I ask you to withdraw that word.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Arts, Media, Communications, Culture and Sport: Arts Council Grant Management IT System: Discussion (Resumed) (1 Jul 2025)

Alan Kelly: Senator, just for the record, will you withdraw the word?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Arts, Media, Communications, Culture and Sport: Arts Council Grant Management IT System: Discussion (Resumed) (1 Jul 2025)

Alan Kelly: I do not know, but it is not the one you used previously.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Arts, Media, Communications, Culture and Sport: Arts Council Grant Management IT System: Discussion (Resumed) (1 Jul 2025)

Alan Kelly: Yes, that might work.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Arts, Media, Communications, Culture and Sport: Arts Council Grant Management IT System: Discussion (Resumed) (1 Jul 2025)

Alan Kelly: We have to be very clear here. At the time €60,000 was the amount. Subsequently another bill came in, by the looks of things, which made it nearly double that.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Arts, Media, Communications, Culture and Sport: Arts Council Grant Management IT System: Discussion (Resumed) (1 Jul 2025)

Alan Kelly: Yes.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Arts, Media, Communications, Culture and Sport: Arts Council Grant Management IT System: Discussion (Resumed) (1 Jul 2025)

Alan Kelly: There is a lag there.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Arts, Media, Communications, Culture and Sport: Arts Council Grant Management IT System: Discussion (Resumed) (1 Jul 2025)

Alan Kelly: I know. Just to be clear - and this is for clarity rather than in my time - when the council representatives were in here, at that time there was the €60,000 and they were not aware of the subsequent figure. Would that be accurate?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Arts, Media, Communications, Culture and Sport: Arts Council Grant Management IT System: Discussion (Resumed) (1 Jul 2025)

Alan Kelly: I understand that. Mr. Kelly is saying they could have said €60,000 plus whatever the piece we had already commissioned before the Department told them to stop. At the time though, what the council representatives were actually aware of was just the €60,000. Is that correct?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Arts, Media, Communications, Culture and Sport: Arts Council Grant Management IT System: Discussion (Resumed) (1 Jul 2025)

Alan Kelly: Okay, but from the officials' conversation last Thursday - I am trying to get to the bottom of this because four or five people have been at it now - Mr. Kelly got a phone call to say the bill was €119,000.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Arts, Media, Communications, Culture and Sport: Arts Council Grant Management IT System: Discussion (Resumed) (1 Jul 2025)

Alan Kelly: Okay, so we understand that bills lag and we understand there was a date where the Department said "No more". We also know there was other work commissioned prior to the Department saying "No more". Are we all together on that bit? However, a bill came in subsequent to that work.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Arts, Media, Communications, Culture and Sport: Arts Council Grant Management IT System: Discussion (Resumed) (1 Jul 2025)

Alan Kelly: We would have to take it - we will clarify with the Arts Council through the clerk - that presumably that bill came in after the council was in here. By the sounds of things it was fairly recent.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Arts, Media, Communications, Culture and Sport: Arts Council Grant Management IT System: Discussion (Resumed) (1 Jul 2025)

Alan Kelly: Okay, we will clarify that.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Arts, Media, Communications, Culture and Sport: Arts Council Grant Management IT System: Discussion (Resumed) (1 Jul 2025)

Alan Kelly: That is a long one. That is a six-mark one.

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