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An tOrd Gnó - Order of Business (23 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: I ask the Taoiseach to get the Minister to take a hands on approach with this issue and to try to get it addressed with the RSA.

An tOrd Gnó - Order of Business (23 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: It needs a push. It needs action.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: Apologies have been received from Deputy Imelda Munster. The witnesses are very welcome. I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are switched off or are on silent mode. Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards reference witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: As Mr. McKeon has quite a long opening statement, could he summarise it?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: I advise Mr. McKeon that he is over time. I ask that he summarise the remainder of his statement.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: I thank Mr. McKeon. The first member I call is Deputy Burke. He has 15 minutes.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: Yes, but we are nearly over time.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: I will move past Deputy Verona Murphy on the list and call Deputy McAuliffe.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: I call Deputy Verona Murphy.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: We are going to conclude and I will suspend the meeting for ten minutes. Before that, I want to ask Mr. McKeon a question about the appeals. The limit is 21 days at the moment. Sometimes a person may get a letter six or seven days after it was sent. Did you say it changes from 21 days to 180 days?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: Yes, that is important. On the other change regarding judging the appeals afresh, there would be a feeling sometimes that whatever goes across from the Department is the final say on the matter and that decision has to be upheld. I am not saying that is the case but-----

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: A review system is still there. I find that helpful for people so that when further information comes to light there is no need even to waste time nor tie up resources. If a person spots that a certain piece of information is missing, it just needs a phone call to the Department, where the officials are normally very helpful. The person can supply that and copy that to them. Often that...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: Keep it away from the Four Courts.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: I thank the Deputy. I will go back to the classification of workers with Mr. McKeon for the moment. Different estimates have been put on this and we have discussed this with the Department here before. At this point, will the Department accept that there is still a significant problem with bogus self-employment or misclassification of workers in this State?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: I am interested in a "Yes" or a "No".

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: Can I ask a follow-on question from that, please? What sectors does Mr McKeon believe that this phenomenon is most prevalent in, in his experience?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: The media, okay.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: On the airline sector, would that apply across the board with the main companies operating - without the naming of any companies - or is it more or less confined to one or two particular companies?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: Okay. On the media, obviously the national State broadcaster, RTÉ, is a case in point and we have discussed this matter a great deal with Revenue, with Mr. McKeon's Department and indeed with RTÉ. On the 695 cases which are under examination at the moment, 160 have been determined already. Does that leave the 695 cases or does that 160 come out of the 695?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: Obviously there is a role here also for Revenue. Is it a case with regard to those 160 cases which have been determined that Revenue would take the same position as the Department of Social Protection? Are there differences with regard to the approach of Revenue and the approach of Mr. McKeon's Department and, indeed, in the outcome?

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