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Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(2 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: Let me just clarify. There were 515 similar appeals to the three tests the appeals officer initiated at St. Michael’s House, Cheeverstown House and the Daughters of Charity. These were residents within those institutions for whom appeals had been made on their behalf. An appeals officer had determined they were eligible. A decision was made to appeal that. That appeal was...

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(2 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: The memo I refer to which lays out the legal rationale states: The particular difficulty with challenging such a finding by the appeals office is that it raises a wider issue, that the legal basis under which payments were collected from residents and community homes, if it were found by the High Court that they were not recoverable health charges, there appears to be no other legal basis...

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(2 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: These people are eligible for the scheme. That has been determined by the HSE's appeals officer, a decision it did not appeal, on the basis of legal advice indicating it did not stand a chance in hell. There are, potentially, 10,000 people additional to the people we have been talking about all week, and these are people who are in disability services in section 38 and section 39...

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(2 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: For clarity, the documentation I have in front of me is the HSE's own financial statements on an annual basis and its notes relating to 2011, 2012 and so on.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(2 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: May I finish with one further point?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(2 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: Here is the situation as we know it. Up to 10,000 people in those homes were eligible, a number of them appealed and the appeal was upheld but, because of delays as a result of a court challenge that did not materialise, it was a number of years before those who had appealed were paid. A number of people who had applied in the first instance did not appeal based on the advice of the HSE...

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(2 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: In respect of where my figure of 10,000 has come from, according to this memorandum we have received, €20 million would be required to satisfy the appeals of the 512 who had made appeals. That was subsequently included in the HSE's financial statements. The memorandum also stated, however, that in the worst-case scenario, the HSE estimated a potential liability of some €360...

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(2 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: Why would Mr. Mulvany not be able to get further information today?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(2 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: I want to go back to the issue I raised earlier. I will be clear in terms of the questions I am seeking to have answered. Section 38 and 39 residential homes are voluntary community disability services. In many cases, we are talking about some of the most vulnerable people in our society in the context of those homes. The HSE advised patients in those settings that they would not be...

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(2 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: Go on then.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(2 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: Which one would Mr. Mulvany not accept?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(2 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: I literally only just said it approximately a minute and a half ago. What did I say that Mr. Mulvany disputes?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(2 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: Mr. Mulvany made the point that he is disputing some of what I said. I am asking him what he disputes. Does he dispute the use of the word "bizarre"?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(2 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: Okay.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(2 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: I will say this. If the word that caused concern is "bizarre", just to reflect on how I used it, I said it was bizarre. I accept that it is a subjective position. However, I consider it bizarre that a Department would take appeal its own appeals officer's decision in court. That is a bizarre scenario. In that instance, the chief executive is entitled absolutely to have a different view...

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(2 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: I will need to come back in again on a different issue, if I can, Chair.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(2 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: My question concerns disability services, particularly respite services. There are anomalies in different areas and even within CHOs, which result in discrimination against some children and their families based on where they live. I have been dealing with a number of people in my constituency of Cavan-Monaghan who are trying to secure respite care for their children. One horrendous case...

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(2 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: What is the timeframe for that?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(2 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: There is a need to expand the services-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Health Service Executive - Financial Statements 2021 (Resumed)
(2 Feb 2023)

Matt Carthy: There are no respite services at all in County Monaghan, for example, while the service in County Cavan operates for children only every second week. It is not much use expanding the services if the criteria are denying access to the children who need them-----

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