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Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: I thank Mr. McKeon. The first member I call is Deputy Burke. He has 15 minutes.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: Yes, but we are nearly over time.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: I will move past Deputy Verona Murphy on the list and call Deputy McAuliffe.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: I call Deputy Verona Murphy.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: We are going to conclude and I will suspend the meeting for ten minutes. Before that, I want to ask Mr. McKeon a question about the appeals. The limit is 21 days at the moment. Sometimes a person may get a letter six or seven days after it was sent. Did you say it changes from 21 days to 180 days?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: Yes, that is important. On the other change regarding judging the appeals afresh, there would be a feeling sometimes that whatever goes across from the Department is the final say on the matter and that decision has to be upheld. I am not saying that is the case but-----

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: A review system is still there. I find that helpful for people so that when further information comes to light there is no need even to waste time nor tie up resources. If a person spots that a certain piece of information is missing, it just needs a phone call to the Department, where the officials are normally very helpful. The person can supply that and copy that to them. Often that...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: Keep it away from the Four Courts.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: I thank the Deputy. I will go back to the classification of workers with Mr. McKeon for the moment. Different estimates have been put on this and we have discussed this with the Department here before. At this point, will the Department accept that there is still a significant problem with bogus self-employment or misclassification of workers in this State?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: I am interested in a "Yes" or a "No".

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: Can I ask a follow-on question from that, please? What sectors does Mr McKeon believe that this phenomenon is most prevalent in, in his experience?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: The media, okay.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: On the airline sector, would that apply across the board with the main companies operating - without the naming of any companies - or is it more or less confined to one or two particular companies?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: Okay. On the media, obviously the national State broadcaster, RTÉ, is a case in point and we have discussed this matter a great deal with Revenue, with Mr. McKeon's Department and indeed with RTÉ. On the 695 cases which are under examination at the moment, 160 have been determined already. Does that leave the 695 cases or does that 160 come out of the 695?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: Obviously there is a role here also for Revenue. Is it a case with regard to those 160 cases which have been determined that Revenue would take the same position as the Department of Social Protection? Are there differences with regard to the approach of Revenue and the approach of Mr. McKeon's Department and, indeed, in the outcome?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: As regards the Department's engagement with RTÉ, Mr. McKeon said he has been engaging with the organisation and has met RTÉ management on this issue. How many are employed in RTÉ on the basis that they are independent contractors as opposed to being employees? We know that there are approximately 1,800 employees in RTÉ so what does that translate to?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: I will ask Mr. Daly. Where there are a number of other people who are not actual employees, how many such individuals in total does he estimate are working in RTÉ who are not employees?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: I thank Mr. McKeon as that answer captures this point. On the educational sector, one of the things which surprised me over the past year or so, when one starts to look at this, is there that there seems to be a significant number of people in the third level institutions who are employed as contractors. Are these mainly lecturers or what is the situation there?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: So are junior lecturers more likely to be independent contractors.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Social Insurance Fund 2022
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 13 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 14 - Ex gratia Payments of €1.4 million to Social Welfare Branch Managers
Chapter 15 - Raising Social Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 16 - Recovery of Welfare Overpayments
Chapter 17 - Actuarial Review of the Social Insurance Fund
(18 Jan 2024)

Brian Stanley: Is the examination to be carried out by the Department around the issue where there seems to be regular workers there. In other words, they are there this week, they will be there after Easter and they will be back after September. Is that the type of arrangement?

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