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Committee on Drugs Use: Drug Use Policy: HSE, Department of Justice and Department of Health (20 Jun 2024)

Lynn Ruane: I am going to have to move on. The Deputy is way over time. I call Deputy Shanahan.

Committee on Drugs Use: Drug Use Policy: HSE, Department of Justice and Department of Health (20 Jun 2024)

Lynn Ruane: Thank you, Deputy Shanahan. I will go to Deputy Kenny.

Committee on Drugs Use: Drug Use Policy: HSE, Department of Justice and Department of Health (20 Jun 2024)

Lynn Ruane: To clarify, Deputy Kenny, do you mean the drugs Act rather than Government policy itself?

Committee on Drugs Use: Drug Use Policy: HSE, Department of Justice and Department of Health (20 Jun 2024)

Lynn Ruane: Thank you, Deputy. There is lots in that. I will ask a few questions as well. We do have clinical-grade drugs that hospitals use that do not require engagement with the Taliban, when we look at how all medicines are made, so there may be some questions as to whether that is an accurate representation. There are things like heroin-assisted treatment programmes in other countries, and I am...

Committee on Drugs Use: Drug Use Policy: HSE, Department of Justice and Department of Health (20 Jun 2024)

Lynn Ruane: Grand, I just did not understand why-----

Committee on Drugs Use: Drug Use Policy: HSE, Department of Justice and Department of Health (20 Jun 2024)

Lynn Ruane: Exactly, so-----

Committee on Drugs Use: Drug Use Policy: HSE, Department of Justice and Department of Health (20 Jun 2024)

Lynn Ruane: Exactly. I did not understand what was happening there.

Committee on Drugs Use: Drug Use Policy: HSE, Department of Justice and Department of Health (20 Jun 2024)

Lynn Ruane: Okay. For that to act as the basis, we must also look at this idea of a health diversion. We need to be very honest that the current model being worked on is not decriminalisation. I wonder if there is an objection from any of the Departments to decriminalisation in the repealing of section 3. Is there a departmental objection to decriminalisation?

Committee on Drugs Use: Drug Use Policy: HSE, Department of Justice and Department of Health (20 Jun 2024)

Lynn Ruane: It is good to have this on record. As legislators we need to work on the idea of stop and search as a barrier to stopping the criminalising of people who experience addiction because the section that exists within the drugs Act is used for a broader purpose of being able to just stop and search carte blanche. It is using people who are in addiction and people who use drugs as a way to find...

Committee on Drugs Use: Drug Use Policy: HSE, Department of Justice and Department of Health (20 Jun 2024)

Lynn Ruane: Yes, but in respect of the actual arrest piece and arresting somebody, will the witnesses tell me what is the evidence and the health rationale? Can the Department of Health say what is the health benefit of arresting someone for possession of drugs for personal use, whether it is the first time or the 12th time, and if they are in addiction, what is the evidence to support this as a good...

Committee on Drugs Use: Drug Use Policy: HSE, Department of Justice and Department of Health (20 Jun 2024)

Lynn Ruane: I am talking more about the Department of Health. I would imagine the Department of Health would be first for help and that it would see that arrest under the criminal justice system is not a health response, even if a health diversion has been offered once or twice, because addiction obviously is complex. From a health-led perspective, how is criminal justice, even factored into a health...

Committee on Drugs Use: Drug Use Policy: HSE, Department of Justice and Department of Health (20 Jun 2024)

Lynn Ruane: Okay. I thank the witnesses. I have gone over my time so I might go back around. Deputy Ward is up first.

Committee on Drugs Use: Drug Use Policy: HSE, Department of Justice and Department of Health (20 Jun 2024)

Lynn Ruane: I have to move on.

Committee on Drugs Use: Drug Use Policy: HSE, Department of Justice and Department of Health (20 Jun 2024)

Lynn Ruane: Agreed. Deputy Hourigan is next.

Committee on Drugs Use: Drug Use Policy: HSE, Department of Justice and Department of Health (20 Jun 2024)

Lynn Ruane: We have to move on. Dr. Keenan is looking to come in. I want to check if Deputy Shanahan is okay for him to respond? Yes.

Committee on Drugs Use: Drug Use Policy: HSE, Department of Justice and Department of Health (20 Jun 2024)

Lynn Ruane: I will have to find it but there is good research on drug markets and that no matter how many interventions or seizures happen, it is such an intelligent market that they never interrupt the market, because it is so big. What we sometimes see when a seizure happens is that the market corrects itself so quickly that is not really felt on the ground or it does not remove the substances,...

Committee on Drugs Use: Drug Use Policy: HSE, Department of Justice and Department of Health (20 Jun 2024)

Lynn Ruane: That means there are caveats that we are unaware of. Is an audit being done of those 17,500 cases referred to by Deputy Kenny? Is there an audit of the prosecutions to identify what people are being done for at the same time, meaning that they do not meet the criteria for adult caution?

Committee on Drugs Use: Drug Use Policy: HSE, Department of Justice and Department of Health (20 Jun 2024)

Lynn Ruane: My second question is on grooming. I have always had a personal issue with this because, for me, poverty and the environment are why grooming happens, yet we seem to want to target particular groups and say they are responsible for the grooming of those in this or that age group. Within the policy or the legislation, is it possible that an 18-year-old can be charged with grooming a 15-year-old?

Committee on Drugs Use: Drug Use Policy: HSE, Department of Justice and Department of Health (20 Jun 2024)

Lynn Ruane: That is extremely problematic. When we look at the nature of some communities and their access to youth work, we see young people as being those up to the age of 23. They do not just go from being a child to being an adult. The sequence of grooming is complex in the sense that there are many people who live in the same community who are being given the same access to the same illegitimate...

Committee on Drugs Use: Drug Use Policy: HSE, Department of Justice and Department of Health (20 Jun 2024)

Lynn Ruane: I know that. However, I had a Commencement matter recently in reply to which it was stated that the Department was moving to over-the-counter access. I want to know the current position.

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