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Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

John McGuinness: On a point of clarification, the Minister mentioned our 288-page report. Will he be responding formally to the content of it? He gave us some good news on one of the recommendations. Will he be coming forward to deal with all the recommendations and give us a clear response to the report?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

John McGuinness: Again, for clarification, my view on the TLAC composition was it should have a majority from the private sector, so I share the Minister's view. Is he saying TLAC and the Public Appointments Service, PAS, will be part of the work of that independent group to look at how these bodies function?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

John McGuinness: Both of them?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

John McGuinness: Okay.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

John McGuinness: As a final point, I wish to put something on record. I have done so numerous times but do so again as Deputy Mairéad Farrell has raised it. The decision to increase the salary of a particular individual or position by €81,000 was a disgraceful decision taken quietly in some back room in Government Buildings. There was the addition of €3,000 and then the increase yesterday...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

John McGuinness: I put on record again that those are recommendations. The Minister can say "No" to a recommendation. He can say "No" to the €81,000 increase. He could provide the figure for himself. I will not go any deeper into that. To whom are Secretaries General responsible? Who is the boss after the Secretary General?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

John McGuinness: Should the Minister for Health have told his Secretary General to appear before the Committee of Public Accounts and the finance committee?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

John McGuinness: In the absence of Deputy Tóibín, I call Deputy Durkan.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

John McGuinness: I call on Deputy Carthy.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

John McGuinness: The Deputy is due to wind up, but he can go ahead as he is representing Deputy Doherty.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

John McGuinness: Deputy Carthy will have to leave it at that.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

John McGuinness: The Minister might clarify a couple of questions. He answered questions with regard to that new appointment in Horse Racing Ireland. He said that was not a new pay increase. I am looking at a newspaper headline that notes a "€52,000 pay rise for Horse Racing Ireland chief". When was that pay rise granted? Was it with that new appointment or previous to that?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

John McGuinness: I do not understand that. It was an increase offered to the individual who was taking up that position. Is that not correct?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

John McGuinness: Okay. When was that increase given to the person who previously held the post?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

John McGuinness: Unless the Minister is telling me this article is completely incorrect, it refers to "a €190,000 annual salary with a company car" and "the starting salary set for the role had been ... €137,356". I am raising this to clarify the issue. Deputy Carthy brought it up in his first question. The article goes on to state, "The contract also said a car allowance of €13,150...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

John McGuinness: It is similar to some of the articles people would have read, for example, about the fact that some car company sponsored a car for the chief executive of the HSE. I do not know whether that is true or false. I do not know whether Government sanctions that. It is just to make sure from the Minister's perspective and the work of this committee that whatever information is out there is...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

John McGuinness: That is the point I am making about HRI and similarly in respect of the HSE and the salary in that regard. Is it true that some car company sponsors the car? I do not know that. I am asking because we are asked as we go about our business in our constituencies. The Minister might come back on that. He mentioned collective agreements. We could call the pay increase for school...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

John McGuinness: I understand that.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(2 Feb 2022)

John McGuinness: In relation to procurement, I ask the Minister of State, Deputy Ossian Smyth, about the procurement of legal services across the various Departments. Each of us would be aware of the amount of money that can be spent or racked up by legal firms in relation to the Department defending a case or other. For example, the victims of Thalidomide have their 25th Minister for Health in the course...

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