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Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: The reason I am asking is that if it exceeds that figure, I would have to take it that that could mean that it could be in excess of €1.75 billion.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: I know that Mr. Mulvany does not have the accurate figure-----

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: I know that.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: I wish to ask the Secretary General of the Department, Mr. Watt, about this matter. On carrying this figure forward, it seems to be increasing year on year. From the administrative and budgeting point of view, which is the job of the Department, is it the case that that figure will just keep getting rolled over? Is it the intention that a future government might deal with it? I do not...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: A new sum of €100 million has been allocated, as I understand it. If the demand exceeds that by a large amount, based on the figures we have seen today, we could be in a situation where we €0.4 billion or €0.5 billion could be added to that on top of what is there already by the end of the year.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: I understand that. Population growth and inflation-----

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: I will come to that in a minute.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: I want to move on to the issue of agency staffing and overtime. In your opening statement you said that the workforce has increased by 26,000 since 2020 but yet the number of agency staff continues to increase year on year. Why is this happening? You said it is a puzzle that we have to unravel.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: Nobody will deny that 26,000 is a substantial increase in staff.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: The point is that if there are 26,000 more staff and the demand for, and cost of, agency workers is increasing, this should not be a puzzle. There has to be a rational explanation for this. Can Mr. Gloster tell me what is happening in the HSE to cause this situation? I understand that there are greater demands in that we have an increasing and ageing population. However, that does not...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: I accept that. We received a piece of correspondence a few months ago from the HSE - I do not have it to hand so I will go from memory - that gave a picture of staffing in CHO 8. What stood out for me was that there were 30 to 35 more management-administration staff than what was required, whereas right across what I would term the front-line services, there are shortfalls. The CDNTs,...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: According to that letter, there is an excessive number of them.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: Like us, people in the HSE are accountable to the public. You have a seven-year term, as I understand it. Is it your intention to try to address that mismatch?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: Okay, because that is what we need to hear.

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: The correspondence I have mentioned was dated 31 October and provided follow-up information on foot of a PAC meeting. The letter was not very explanatory, but those were the figures in it. Does Mr. Gloster feel the embargo on recruitment is adding to agency costs? Is it having the opposite effect to what is intended? The aim of the embargo is to reduce costs and control spending, but is...

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: I put the question to Mr. Watt. The Minister and the Government decide policy, but is the Minister aware that this could have unintended consequences?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: Is he aware of the unintended consequences-----

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: -----one of which is that the embargo could drive up agency costs?

Public Accounts Committee: Appropriation Accounts 2022
Vote 38 - Health
Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2022
Chapter 18 - Health Service Executive Funding and Financial Reporting
(1 Feb 2024)

Brian Stanley: Okay. We will move to the second round of questions.

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