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Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

Seán Fleming: Of electricity.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

Seán Fleming: What is the effective change for the old-age pensioners?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

Seán Fleming: What was the average value of the old one?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

Seán Fleming: What was the average the Department worked out?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

Seán Fleming: So there is no cut at all there.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

Seán Fleming: The only change was really on the telephone allowance. For the average person there was no change for the electricity allowance but there was for the telephone.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

Seán Fleming: The Department carried out a review of the domiciliary care allowance. What is the situation on that? It involves a thorny application process, with which I have to help people.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

Seán Fleming: Will Ms O'Donoghue send on the information?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

Seán Fleming: If it is concluded in respect of some of the cases that misappropriation took place, would the individuals concerned remain on the payroll?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

Seán Fleming: How many people have been -----

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

Seán Fleming: In the last year or two, or during whatever period Ms O'Donoghue can recall, how many civil servants have been dismissed from her Department for misappropriation of funds? Does the dismissal of a public servant have to go to the Cabinet?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

Seán Fleming: How many were dismissed?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

Seán Fleming: In regard to the first two cases, one individual was dismissed because of fraud.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

Seán Fleming: What was the outcome? Was there a successful outcome in court for the prosecution?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

Seán Fleming: The Department cannot discipline individuals for fraud unless the court proves there was fraud.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

Seán Fleming: None of the aforementioned cases went to the Garda.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

Seán Fleming: Ms O'Donoghue referred to the big issue of recouping overpayments. Up to 15% can be deducted, which equates to €28 per week in the case of a single person on full jobseeker's allowances. What arrangements are in place to deduct the local property tax from social welfare payments and will that be deducted in addition to the 15%? Has an application form been prepared for clients? I...

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

Seán Fleming: I ask Ms O'Donoghue to send us a copy of that list.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

Seán Fleming: How does that compare with the 15% deduction?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

Seán Fleming: There is ongoing exchange of information between Revenue and the Department. More than a year ago we examined the issue of the letters issued to the 115,000 who had various pensions and may have been liable for tax. Some of the cases with longer tails are still working their way through the system. Given the increased level of co-operation between Revenue and the Department in comparing...

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