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Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection - Social Insurance Fund 2021
Chapter 10: Regularity of social welfare payments
Chapter 11: The recovery of benefit and assistance payments following compensation awards
Chapter 14: Classification of workers for PRSI purposes
(1 Dec 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: That was a very small sample.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection - Social Insurance Fund 2021
Chapter 10: Regularity of social welfare payments
Chapter 11: The recovery of benefit and assistance payments following compensation awards
Chapter 14: Classification of workers for PRSI purposes
(1 Dec 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: There were no cases where categorisations or off-the-shelf determinations were used.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection - Social Insurance Fund 2021
Chapter 10: Regularity of social welfare payments
Chapter 11: The recovery of benefit and assistance payments following compensation awards
Chapter 14: Classification of workers for PRSI purposes
(1 Dec 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: I will move on to the issue of debt write-offs. I have dealt with many such cases in my constituency office. For one reason or another, people can accrue payments that it turns out they were not entitled to but in which respect there was no element of fraud. For example, a person might have received a set of payments unawares. The Department has the ability to write off debts. Will Mr....

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection - Social Insurance Fund 2021
Chapter 10: Regularity of social welfare payments
Chapter 11: The recovery of benefit and assistance payments following compensation awards
Chapter 14: Classification of workers for PRSI purposes
(1 Dec 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: There may be debts that are not applied above the €27 million that has been detailed.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection - Social Insurance Fund 2021
Chapter 10: Regularity of social welfare payments
Chapter 11: The recovery of benefit and assistance payments following compensation awards
Chapter 14: Classification of workers for PRSI purposes
(1 Dec 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: It is difficult for Mr. McKeon to comment on individual cases, but what is the profile of the 715 people who had a debt of greater than €10,000? Is it where the Department believes that someone has engaged fraudulently?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection - Social Insurance Fund 2021
Chapter 10: Regularity of social welfare payments
Chapter 11: The recovery of benefit and assistance payments following compensation awards
Chapter 14: Classification of workers for PRSI purposes
(1 Dec 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: It is more a judgment of the person's ability to repay than the circumstances in which the debt arose.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection - Social Insurance Fund 2021
Chapter 10: Regularity of social welfare payments
Chapter 11: The recovery of benefit and assistance payments following compensation awards
Chapter 14: Classification of workers for PRSI purposes
(1 Dec 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: There is sometimes an attempt to demonise people in these circumstances by alluding to fraud, but the witnesses have clarified two matters. First, fraud accounts for a small amount of the debt, with most of the debt being due to routine issues or people claiming inadvertently. Second, the Department takes a compassionate approach to repayments, one that reflects people's ability to pay...

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection - Social Insurance Fund 2021
Chapter 10: Regularity of social welfare payments
Chapter 11: The recovery of benefit and assistance payments following compensation awards
Chapter 14: Classification of workers for PRSI purposes
(1 Dec 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: My comments were for my colleagues rather than Mr. McKeon.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection - Social Insurance Fund 2021
Chapter 10: Regularity of social welfare payments
Chapter 11: The recovery of benefit and assistance payments following compensation awards
Chapter 14: Classification of workers for PRSI purposes
(1 Dec 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: Out of a total budget of-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection - Social Insurance Fund 2021
Chapter 10: Regularity of social welfare payments
Chapter 11: The recovery of benefit and assistance payments following compensation awards
Chapter 14: Classification of workers for PRSI purposes
(1 Dec 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: I want to focus on the issue of community employment, CE. The principal purpose of CE is to provide training opportunities for job activation to ensure people come off the live register and are able to secure their way back into employment. Is that a fair assessment of the CE scheme?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection - Social Insurance Fund 2021
Chapter 10: Regularity of social welfare payments
Chapter 11: The recovery of benefit and assistance payments following compensation awards
Chapter 14: Classification of workers for PRSI purposes
(1 Dec 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: Yes, but the Department’s scope within that is focused on the job activation side-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection - Social Insurance Fund 2021
Chapter 10: Regularity of social welfare payments
Chapter 11: The recovery of benefit and assistance payments following compensation awards
Chapter 14: Classification of workers for PRSI purposes
(1 Dec 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: They often do not receive funding from any other Department towards the very positive work they do. The funding comes from the Department of Social Protection and it is a job activation measure.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection - Social Insurance Fund 2021
Chapter 10: Regularity of social welfare payments
Chapter 11: The recovery of benefit and assistance payments following compensation awards
Chapter 14: Classification of workers for PRSI purposes
(1 Dec 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: I accept that that is what it is on the ground. From a funding perspective, however, the people on the scheme are employed at a rate slightly above the social welfare rate to encourage them to participate. The CE supervisor and the assistant supervisor are paid to manage those employees. There is no additional funding in respect of all the positive stuff they do.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection - Social Insurance Fund 2021
Chapter 10: Regularity of social welfare payments
Chapter 11: The recovery of benefit and assistance payments following compensation awards
Chapter 14: Classification of workers for PRSI purposes
(1 Dec 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: Again, that is training for people on the scheme.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection - Social Insurance Fund 2021
Chapter 10: Regularity of social welfare payments
Chapter 11: The recovery of benefit and assistance payments following compensation awards
Chapter 14: Classification of workers for PRSI purposes
(1 Dec 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: One of the flaws of the scheme is that all the funding relates to the employment or activation element and that there is not significant funding for those other measures Mr. McKeon just mentioned, which make a positive community contribution. With that in mind, people who are in charge of managing those schemes, of budgeting and so on are CE supervisors. They have not received an increase...

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection - Social Insurance Fund 2021
Chapter 10: Regularity of social welfare payments
Chapter 11: The recovery of benefit and assistance payments following compensation awards
Chapter 14: Classification of workers for PRSI purposes
(1 Dec 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: Is that acceptable?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection - Social Insurance Fund 2021
Chapter 10: Regularity of social welfare payments
Chapter 11: The recovery of benefit and assistance payments following compensation awards
Chapter 14: Classification of workers for PRSI purposes
(1 Dec 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: Yes, but even if we take the case of a telephonist, a clerical officer or others on 2008 HSE-consolidated grades, for example, the pay of those public servants is now between 3% and 5% above where it was in 2008.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection - Social Insurance Fund 2021
Chapter 10: Regularity of social welfare payments
Chapter 11: The recovery of benefit and assistance payments following compensation awards
Chapter 14: Classification of workers for PRSI purposes
(1 Dec 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: The minimum wage, for example, has increased by 30% since 2008.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection - Social Insurance Fund 2021
Chapter 10: Regularity of social welfare payments
Chapter 11: The recovery of benefit and assistance payments following compensation awards
Chapter 14: Classification of workers for PRSI purposes
(1 Dec 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: Is there a reason the national wage agreement was not applied?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection - Social Insurance Fund 2021
Chapter 10: Regularity of social welfare payments
Chapter 11: The recovery of benefit and assistance payments following compensation awards
Chapter 14: Classification of workers for PRSI purposes
(1 Dec 2022)

Paul McAuliffe: Am I correct in saying that the Department could have included them in that agreement?

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