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Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: This section deals with offences by a body corporate, namely a business or a company. Lots of banks, for example, are companies and, in that context, how strong is this section? Perhaps the issue is dealt with in other sections of the legislation, but the references to banks and corporate organisations in the Bill seem to be very light, in terms of sanctions. A fine of €500,000 for...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: There needs to be a parallel sanction for companies. I would say, for example, that a bank should lose its licence for five years. If a person is going to go to jail for five years for falling foul of this legislation, he or she is being taken out of commission, so to speak. A body corporate should suffer similar consequences and forfeit its tax clearance, its licence or some such for the...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: I understand that it is very serious but-----

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: Perhaps we could disqualify the entire board of directors and top levels of management-----

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: Will the Minister explain this? It indicates that if an inquiry is completed and the House is dissolved, this will not stop any ongoing legal proceedings.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: This deals with evidence on oath but what is meant in this respect? With somebody who does not believe in swearing on the Bible, what alternative mechanisms are provided for? I can think of a Member who recently had to swear something other than an oath.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: The essence of this section is that, where a committee is of the opinion that the publication of a report could be expected to prejudice criminal proceedings, it can apply to the court for support or an injunction.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: Yes. The report would be published with the protection of the court. If someone commenced proceedings one or one and a half years after the committee started its work, the inquiry would be left swinging in the wind.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: Is the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement comprehended under this section?

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: Can the Revenue Commissioners take criminal proceedings?

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: Does the Minister also mean Senators?

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: What are the implications if the Seanad no longer exists? The Minister cannot see down the road, but will Senators' papers still be protected or will that provision be relevant?

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: Is it only relevant to the confidential papers of Members of the Dáil that exists at the time?

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: In layman's English, will the Minister explain what he means by "papers"? Do they include representations to my constituency office, communications via the Oireachtas e-mail system, etc.? The Minister and former Deputy Jim Higgins received some documents.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: If a Member issued a defamatory letter, would it be legally protected?

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: In law the Minister is the Department. A Department does not have two heads so one cannot have a Minister with one view and somebody else in the Department with a different view. I accept this and it makes for common sense. If an inquiry is being held and we accept civil servants cannot comment on the policy, how can they help the committee in its consideration of what went on? Surely...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: This section replicates section 68. Maybe it is to do with an inquiry under a different section. Could the Minister clarify that for me? I oppose the section for the exact same reason I opposed section 68, which was about upsetting our foreign neighbours. Sections 83 and 84 seem very similar to sections 68 and 69.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: What does the Minister mean?

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: So this applies to every other current committee as well. We are saying the committee of inquiry established under that will flow from this. We will not have one scintilla more power than any of the other Oireachtas committees.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Houses of the Oireachtas (Inquiries, Privileges and Procedures) Bill 2013: Committee Stage (5 Jun 2013)

Seán Fleming: It is the same constraint that applies to others, by definition.

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