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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: While they are being paid for by the universities, they are also being paid for, in some of the cases, by the Department of Education.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: Would it be the case that any of the Secretaries General who are on secondment would continue to be paid by the Departments they are leaving? In other words, they would go to the university-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: They leave and there is no further cost on the relevant Department as far as they are concerned. It comes out of the Department of Education's budget. Is that the same level of salary?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: If, therefore, I am on a certain salary when I go on secondment, I will continue to get paid that same level of salary.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: I agree with the whole idea of secondment in terms of the knowledge that is shared by those who go into the public sector or a field of education or those who perhaps share with enterprise. That person is sharing knowledge he or she gained in the Civil Service or the public service. That is understood. How do they bring that knowledge back to the relevant Department? In terms of...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: Yes, or any secondment. A person is there to share information and knowledge. How does any Department benefit from having this arrangement?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: To whom and where?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: That is what I am trying to get at. When the people who are seconded to these positions come back into their Departments, the hope then is that they bring back the knowledge and experience they garnered through that new position and that they open up, as it were, the view of their Departments on different things. How many of them have come back? Would it have been expected that the two...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: Would Mr. Moloney have expected, say, one of the Secretaries General who are currently on secondment, without naming them, to come back?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: That is my point.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: Is there any big-ticket item Mr. Moloney can think of in terms of reform that was caused by this exchange of knowledge between one position and another when a Secretary General or person who was on secondment came back? Secondments have gone on for so many years and involved so many people. Deputy Doherty is trying to get to the bottom of that in terms of how many there are. Are they still...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: That would have come from that shared experience and information coming back. It would have helped the direction.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: That is grand. I am anxious to learn about this. Mr. Moloney covered the part in his opening statement in which he spoke about the public service and the Civil Service. He might tell me about the public sector leadership board. How does that function?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: All the Secretaries General are on that board and then there are outside agencies, one of them obviously being the HSE. How many people are on that board?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: The board meets three or four time per year.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: Is the practice of Secretaries General being appointed as ambassadors a normal thing? I heard Mr. Moloney's earlier exchange with Deputy O'Callaghan.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: Is that still the case? Obviously, it is.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: Okay. I will go back to the recruitment of Secretaries General in Departments. The arrangement of a secondment during which a Secretary General retires and is not of pension age is part of the offer in terms of the job.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: How long has that been in place?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: What happened before then?

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