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Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: I will make a few other general remarks. At 1 January 2011, the agency's outstanding liability was €999,000 million and now it is €1.2 billion. The estimated liability has gone up 36% in the past three years. Mr. Breen has said that the agency's main objective is to ensure the expenses relating to the management of cases are contained. Another objective is to work with the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: It is increasing.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: I am looking at the figures.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: Some people feel these are only notional savings, because they see the bill rising all the time. I accept that theoretically the agency paid less than it might have paid, but that was not an actual saving.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: Was the agency admitting liability?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: I thank Mr. Breen.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: I understand the last part of what Mr. Breen has said. I was struck by one part of this case - which is a prominent case and one with which Mr. Breen is very familiar. Dylan was born in 2007 but Mr. Breen said the State Claims Agency received the summons on 26 October 2010, three years later. When did the State Claims Agency become aware of this case and its adverse medical situation? Is...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: By the way, have the Gaffney Hayes family received their money?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: Obviously 90% of the cases under the State Claims Agency are clinical cases. Another prominent case would be that of Louise O'Keeffe which was decided in the European Court of Human Rights. In the course of similar cases the agency had written to people to withdraw their actions after the matters were decided in the Irish courts. Some did withdraw but some went to court. The State Claims...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: Thank you, Chairman. I welcome all of the witnesses to today's meeting. I would like to ask the representatives of the National Pensions Reserve Fund a brief question about the 2012 accounts, which they signed off on 17 June 2013. Page 7 of those accounts refers to an expected commitment of €250 million to Irish Water as part of that body's establishment costs. Can the witnesses...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: When did the NPRF get that guarantee? Who signed that guarantee?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: When was the legislation to which Mr. Corrigan refers passed? Is he talking about the Irish Water legislation that was passed just before Christmas?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: Who signed the commitment? Perhaps I should call it a guarantee.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: What was the nature of that guarantee? Was it that he would pay this money back if Irish Water did not pay it back?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: Is it the case that in the absence of that guarantee, the NPRF was not satisfied with the proposal?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: I ask the witnesses to talk me through the mechanics of this payment of €250 million in July 2013. To whom was it paid? Was it paid to Bord Gáis?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: It was paid to Irish Water rather than to Bord Gáis. What are the terms of that loan? Is it a loan?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: That is all right. I wanted to get the mechanics of it on the record. Many people have debated where this money came from. We knew the NPRF had a role in this regard, as it had specifically referred to this money in its annual account. I would like to ask a few questions about the State Claims Agency. I raised this issue with the witnesses when they were here previously. We heard some...

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: Can it be the practice in future that when the HSE has significant information that it circulates it to the committee in advance? The practice the HSE adopted on two occasions when it has been on live television has been to produce information for the first time for dramatic effect and causing public consternation while this committee has not had the opportunity to consider it calmly in...

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: No; I do not want to involve the CPP. I am entitled to it.

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