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Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: What are the largest awards of the cases that have not gone to court?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: I note that the agency made payments last year of €147,000 for an average case. That includes approximately €60,000 of costs and €87,000 of the award itself. This means for every €1,000 of an award there is €670 in legal costs on top. We are finding that 40% of all the agency's payments are for legal costs. What are the highest sums the agency paid to...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: I have asked the question before. How much would it cost to take barristers on contract? Mr. Breen has referred to a reduced rate but the agency is paying a daily rate.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: Is there no mechanism within the State apparatus - I am directing this to the entire deputation at this stage - whereby instead of paying barristers up to €2,000 per day, which could amount to hundreds of thousands of euro per annum, the agency could get some of them on an annual contract? That way they could develop considerable expertise at a rate dramatically less than the current rate.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: People tender for everything now.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: It is still costing the State far more than it should. I am speaking as an ordinary person. It is still the case that hundreds of thousands of euro are going on these cases.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: Mr. Breen is in place to help the State reduce the costs.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: I wish to put a question to Mr. Corrigan. Representatives from the troika were here several times and I imagine Mr. Corrigan met them. Now, it appears to be illegal for the State to try to get a competitive annual rate for legal services from a barrister. This was one of the protected professions which escaped the troika for three years. It looks as if since they got out of the clutches...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: The legal profession talked them out of it.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: In many cases liability is admitted. The injuries board is a separate organisation. The chairperson of the injuries board made a remark that if an organisation like the injuries board took over these cases it would save the State a good deal of money rather than the agency doing that work. She stated that one of the reasons for this was that the board deals with cases in 7.2 months whereas...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: To return to the clinical cases, the Comptroller and Auditor General said he was concerned about how long it was taking to deal with cases. The lifetime of each claim was measured from the date it is recorded on the State Claims Agency's computer. Is that the date the agency was made aware of the adverse finding or what date is it?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: A legal claim?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: Will Mr. Breen please repeat that? The date of resolution is which date?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: So it is the final completion, after admitting liability or earlier?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: Would the agency have paid out the award in the meantime?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: When we look at the chart on page 2 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, it shows the paediatric cases since 2008 have stretched from an average period of just over three years to well over five years, mental health issue cases have gone from two years to five years and gynaecological claims have gone the same way. The figures on the chart are going in the wrong direction.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: Mr. Breen has said that only 3% of claims go to court so that should not affect this so much. What about the 97% of cases? I would like to separate the cases that go to court versus those that do not. Only 3% go to court, so let us talk about the 97%. I am sure the chart on page 2 includes the 97% and is primarily based on them. Therefore, the issue of court dates should not apply to the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: These cases are still taking a very long time, without court appearances.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: I would have said that should be part of the agency's risk management process. It should have a role in shortening the length of time the system takes to deal with a case. The HSE sends X-rays abroad to be read routinely. It sends them to America, for example, from several counties.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 28 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
Chapter 29 - Clinical Indemnity Scheme
2012 Annual Report and Accounts - National Pensions Reserve Fund
(13 Feb 2014)

Seán Fleming: Why then does Mr. Breen say there are only three available?

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