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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: General Scheme of Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Pre-legislative Scrutiny (8 Jul 2015)

Seán Fleming: Are we calling in some people next week?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: General Scheme of Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Pre-legislative Scrutiny (8 Jul 2015)

Seán Fleming: We understand it has been a difficult afternoon. Several votes were called in the earlier session and some of us have had to attend the meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts in the meantime. We are being caught all over the place, but I am concerned that the meeting would have to adjourn if the few of us who are here leave. I have a number of questions, and I thank the witnesses...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: General Scheme of Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Pre-legislative Scrutiny (8 Jul 2015)

Seán Fleming: I understand what the Minister is saying in that all those developments happened, but they have nothing to do with dealing with the issues in the Mahon report. Some of those items might be-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: General Scheme of Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Pre-legislative Scrutiny (8 Jul 2015)

Seán Fleming: I have asked the question and I will move on. I presume we are talking about public bodies. Will the definition of public bodies include commercial semi-state bodies?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: General Scheme of Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Pre-legislative Scrutiny (8 Jul 2015)

Seán Fleming: So it will include Irish Water, NAMA-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: General Scheme of Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Pre-legislative Scrutiny (8 Jul 2015)

Seán Fleming: I have the documentation as well, so, in fairness, I will not-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: General Scheme of Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Pre-legislative Scrutiny (8 Jul 2015)

Seán Fleming: There is a lot.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: General Scheme of Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Pre-legislative Scrutiny (8 Jul 2015)

Seán Fleming: All the commercial semi-state bodies.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: General Scheme of Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Pre-legislative Scrutiny (8 Jul 2015)

Seán Fleming: What about the North-South bodies, as in the area of tourism? This has implications for Northern Ireland. I found the loophole. I suspect there might be an issue in our domestic legislation, including-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: General Scheme of Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Pre-legislative Scrutiny (8 Jul 2015)

Seán Fleming: So the North-South bodies would be excluded. They are not included.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: General Scheme of Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Pre-legislative Scrutiny (8 Jul 2015)

Seán Fleming: That is why I am asking the question. It would not be right or proper because they have a role outside our jurisdiction. I am just teasing this out. The ESB and Eirgrid are included.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: General Scheme of Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Pre-legislative Scrutiny (8 Jul 2015)

Seán Fleming: I understand that. What about bodies such as those in the health sector? I refer to the famous sections 38 and 39 organisations. There are 500 section 39 organisations.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: General Scheme of Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Pre-legislative Scrutiny (8 Jul 2015)

Seán Fleming: There is a big schedule of exempted bodies and partially exempted bodies to the Freedom of Information Acts? Will there be such a schedule here?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: General Scheme of Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Pre-legislative Scrutiny (8 Jul 2015)

Seán Fleming: I understand that. On the section 39-type organisations, many other organisations get grants from the Government such as organisations in the voluntary sector. I am sure an element of the Society of St. Vincent de Paul's funding is State funding. I pick it as an example of a big charity but there are many other charities, such as Rape Crisis Network Ireland which provides a national...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: General Scheme of Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Pre-legislative Scrutiny (8 Jul 2015)

Seán Fleming: It goes without saying that we agree with the legislation in principle and the co-ordination of local and national approaches because it is very confusing for many people and there are different places to go. Another issue is that of conflicts of interest. It is not so much the conflict of interest of the public official that is in issue but often it is the one concerned with family and...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: General Scheme of Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Pre-legislative Scrutiny (8 Jul 2015)

Seán Fleming: To whom do they make the disclosure?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: General Scheme of Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Pre-legislative Scrutiny (8 Jul 2015)

Seán Fleming: Spouses and children will fall within the remit but others will not.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: General Scheme of Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Pre-legislative Scrutiny (8 Jul 2015)

Seán Fleming: I will make one further observation. We had this exact same debate during one of the last items of legislation the Minister, Deputy Howlin, brought through. I recommend that principal officers across the public sector should be in category A. Oireachtas Members are on principal officer level salaries. Public officials on the same salary scale as Oireachtas Members should be in the same...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: General Scheme of Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Pre-legislative Scrutiny (8 Jul 2015)

Seán Fleming: It may have been within 12 months. I made this point about principal officers and directors of services. They, in truth, have much more decision-making capacity. They may have to clear it up the line but they are the people driving many decisions. I therefore think they should be included on the same basis. I made the same point the last time and I am delighted someone remembers what I...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: General Scheme of Public Sector Standards Bill 2015: Pre-legislative Scrutiny (8 Jul 2015)

Seán Fleming: Once a year might be more than enough to depress us - I will put it that way - never mind having to do it three or four times a year. The next question I wish to ask concerns judges. Are they included?

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