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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Report 42 of the Review Body on Higher Remuneration in the Public Service: Discussion (14 Dec 2022)

John McGuinness: Who was the Minister for Health then?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Report 42 of the Review Body on Higher Remuneration in the Public Service: Discussion (14 Dec 2022)

John McGuinness: Then that was being used.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Report 42 of the Review Body on Higher Remuneration in the Public Service: Discussion (14 Dec 2022)

John McGuinness: The Minister for Finance at that time, 2010-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Report 42 of the Review Body on Higher Remuneration in the Public Service: Discussion (14 Dec 2022)

John McGuinness: Mr. O'Brien mentioned the Secretary General. Which Department's Secretary General was he referring to?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Report 42 of the Review Body on Higher Remuneration in the Public Service: Discussion (14 Dec 2022)

John McGuinness: Who wrote that memo?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Report 42 of the Review Body on Higher Remuneration in the Public Service: Discussion (14 Dec 2022)

John McGuinness: We will go through the process from there. Where did it go after that?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Report 42 of the Review Body on Higher Remuneration in the Public Service: Discussion (14 Dec 2022)

John McGuinness: This is really the first correspondence from an official to the Minister advising him of all of this.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Report 42 of the Review Body on Higher Remuneration in the Public Service: Discussion (14 Dec 2022)

John McGuinness: In 2011, it went to the Labour Court.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Report 42 of the Review Body on Higher Remuneration in the Public Service: Discussion (14 Dec 2022)

John McGuinness: The Labour Court found in favour of the retired public servants.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Report 42 of the Review Body on Higher Remuneration in the Public Service: Discussion (14 Dec 2022)

John McGuinness: Ms Cronin reinforced what was said about this attitude of "over my dead body are they getting this increase". That was the feeling she got.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Report 42 of the Review Body on Higher Remuneration in the Public Service: Discussion (14 Dec 2022)

John McGuinness: She referred to "these people". Who are "these people"? Ms Cronin was referring to senior civil servants. Who in the senior ranks of the Civil Service has blocked this payment?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Report 42 of the Review Body on Higher Remuneration in the Public Service: Discussion (14 Dec 2022)

John McGuinness: These were the people within these sections in Government who were presenting the obstacles to the payment.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Report 42 of the Review Body on Higher Remuneration in the Public Service: Discussion (14 Dec 2022)

John McGuinness: I just want to find out what happened. We are now up to 2010. It then drifted into more recent times.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Report 42 of the Review Body on Higher Remuneration in the Public Service: Discussion (14 Dec 2022)

John McGuinness: The witnesses have raised this again with Secretaries General and Ministers.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Report 42 of the Review Body on Higher Remuneration in the Public Service: Discussion (14 Dec 2022)

John McGuinness: The response from the Secretaries General involved was not to reply at all. Which Department's Secretary General are we talking about?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Report 42 of the Review Body on Higher Remuneration in the Public Service: Discussion (14 Dec 2022)

John McGuinness: We are talking about the person currently in that position.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Report 42 of the Review Body on Higher Remuneration in the Public Service: Discussion (14 Dec 2022)

John McGuinness: The witnesses have been through all of that. They have been around the loop. The reason I have asked these questions is to have set out in simple terms that there is a case to be answered here. The Labour Court confirmed everything.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Report 42 of the Review Body on Higher Remuneration in the Public Service: Discussion (14 Dec 2022)

John McGuinness: The political system, the Ministers, were poorly informed to say the least.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Report 42 of the Review Body on Higher Remuneration in the Public Service: Discussion (14 Dec 2022)

John McGuinness: They have got the payment, however.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Report 42 of the Review Body on Higher Remuneration in the Public Service: Discussion (14 Dec 2022)

John McGuinness: It is a little bit like 2010, when senior civil servants excluded themselves from a cut through the then Taoiseach and Minister for Finance. Now, having gone through the machinery of the State and correspondence, the witnesses find themselves in a situation where those who were in senior positions got paid while those in their own positions across the sector were not.

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