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Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Mairéad Farrell: I assume we will discuss the Votes in sequence.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Mairéad Farrell: Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as teacht os comhair an choiste den chéad uair mar Aire sa Roinn seo. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire Stáit arís as teacht as comhair an choiste. I welcome the Minister in his first time coming before this committee as Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. I am going to put questions on a...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Mairéad Farrell: I thank the Minister. It is fine if he incorporates the information into a reply to a different question. Two of the Department's primary functions are to manage public expenditure and to reform the Civil Service and the wider public service for the better. We are all aware of the scandals regarding the nursing homes. Some justified it on the basis of keeping costs down for the State, but...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Mairéad Farrell: In the context of managing public expenditure versus reform for the better, which is the context in which the Department was set up, our views on that particular strategy might differ. Are there strategies in place which may help to manage costs but breach, for the want of a more correct term, the reform function in terms of people's rights? How does the Minister manage to balance the...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Mairéad Farrell: To follow up righting the wrongs of the past, this committee have been heavily involved in the updating of the protected disclosures legislation. It appears from the funding allocation that the protected disclosures office has been established. Will the Minister confirm that it is now up and running and that it is now actively seeking protected disclosures at this point?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Mairéad Farrell: It is up and running and those people who would like to make a protected disclosure can do so at that office at this point. Is that correct?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Mairéad Farrell: No problem. The point is that it is up and running now and if somebody wanted to make a protected disclosure, he or she could do so at this point?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Mairéad Farrell: The Minister may be aware that I have introduced my own Protected Disclosures (Amendment) Bill 2021. To be fair to the then Minister, Deputy Michael McGrath, he took on board many of the recommendations from this committee and recommendations that I put forward as well. However, I was always very clear with the Minister that I still had some serious concerns regarding some failings in the...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Mairéad Farrell: We heard at first hand from the people who were affected by making protected disclosures. I feel strongly that it should have been retrospective. That not being the case has had a severe impact on these people My final question under Vote 11 is around the new name of the Department and the reference to NDP delivery. Anything that hopes to improve the delivery is very welcome. I am...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Mairéad Farrell: We are going Vote by Vote.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Mairéad Farrell: I was doing Vote 11.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Mairéad Farrell: Do no worry. I will not be left quiet.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Mairéad Farrell: Sometimes the fact that I am half-German comes out in me and I do things in a direct way. I was listening with interest to what the Chair was saying and he put it well when he described the experience of this committee when it comes to people coming up during our deliberations and us seeing the impact. I hope that going away from this meeting the Minister understands the importance the...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Mairéad Farrell: On Vote 14 for the State Laboratory, I noticed that the Minister mentioned in his opening statement that this is to help the laboratory to comply with new EU food safety legislation. Have there been requests for increases in funding to look at how the State Laboratory could be used in different ways? I have seen that in other countries it could sometimes be used if a particular medication...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Mairéad Farrell: Vote 15 is on the secret service and I noticed that every year the estimated cost is the same figure. What projections are used? My committee colleague, Deputy Durkan, highlighted it well when he said ours is probably the most secret secret service out there when we consider that in other countries it is fairly well known among the general population that there is a secret service. My first...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Mairéad Farrell: Deputy Durkan will be left wondering about our secret secret service. It is a secret in Ireland but not in other countries. The secret service could be all around us. Who knows? As for Vote 17, relating to the Public Appointments Service, something else that was dealt with at length on the committee before Deputy Donohoe became Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Mairéad Farrell: There is one thing that always stands out to me and that I do not understand. It is something we can probably use in the Dáil Chamber but it is not used, although it will be seen in other countries. I think it was in use when Ursula von der Leyen was here. I am sure the Minister sees it all the time in his other role. We do not use the interpretation services in the Chamber....

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Mairéad Farrell: I think I read in one of the briefing documents that eight Departments are currently involved. Am I correct about that? What is the update on the other Departments? Are they not to be brought in? If they are, what is the timeline?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Mairéad Farrell: Another question I have is about something that has been raised with me by quite a lot by friends and constituents and just in general. I thought I would ask it in the context of the NSSO, but it may not come under this Vote. If we have these kinds of shared services that presumably use some kind of modern accounting software, would it be possible for workers to choose how often they are...

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