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Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Someone was a little over-enthusiastic with the headline they gave on any non-compliance. Is that not the case?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Then what exactly is the position?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Then what have they told the HSE?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: The HSE has written to them nine times. These are intelligent people running these organisations. The power lies with the HSE within the service level agreement to ensure compliance. The HSE's service plan has gone to the Minister. Feeding out of that are the service plans for each of these agencies. These agencies and the people working in them do great work. This is a distraction from...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: When?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: So Mr. O'Brien is talking about the next four weeks.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Does Mr. O'Brien expect that, starting from 1 January next year, all the organisations will be compliant with the national service plan and the service level agreements?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Those are business cases being put forward, etc.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: These agencies appear to be ignoring the HSE. It wrote to them nine times in various forms since March 2011. What is the HSE's level of control and why are they ignoring it?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: The elephant in the room is the service plan. The service plans of these organisations must be approved by the HSE.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: The service plan.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Excuse me, I refer to the individual service level agreements with the agencies. They must be approved by the HSE. Surely that gives it a veto over the agencies to ensure they are in compliance with Government pay scales.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: I ask Dr. Smith to respond because his report made reference to their reliance on various criteria as their explanation for breaching Government pay scales. He might outline the reasons, which date back to 1996. People are concerned that the money they have raised through fund raising is being spent on other than front-line services. I am worried this will tarnish the great work that is...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: I know about that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Approximately 10% of that €31 million was for funded allowances for 191 people, according to the report.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: I ask Dr. Smith to outline the reasons they gave for paying these allowances in breach of Government policy.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: In Dr. Smith's option, were they reasonable in taking that approach?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: When did Dr. Smith reach a point where there was no longer any ambiguity on whether the agencies were in breach of Government pay scales?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Looking through the internal report by Dr. Smith, who I welcome, I can see that the person responsible for implementing the 22 recommendations is the national director of HR, Mr. Barry O'Brien. Is there a reason Mr. O'Brien is not here today?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Our role as the Committee of Public Accounts is to ensure that the taxpayer is getting proper value for money. Section 38 agencies do very good work. I am looking at it from the perspective of the end user in terms of hospitals and the various agencies and disabilities. Side by side with that, there are difficulties with pay scales for people working in these organisations, particularly at...

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