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Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: Is that substantially a transfer of people from rent supplement to housing assistance?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: I would like Mr. McCarthy to clarify one point on HAP. I would like a detailed note on this. HAP is substantially a transfer of people from rent supplement. The 13,000 are not new people and they are not in new houses. When the rent supplement payments were being moved from the Department of Social Protection to the local authorities, county by county, landlords increased the rent for a...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: I will ask Mr. McCarthy to give me the details because he said some were new people. Some might have been people who were on rent supplement changing address. The person was in a house on rent supplement, the rent went up, the person left and got a new house and that same person now comes in under HAP. Mr. McCarthy is calling that a new application but it is the same person. Does Mr....

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: What do you call "new"?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: The witness appears to have a detailed schedule so will he please send it to the committee?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: If we have further questions after we receive that, we will come back to the witness.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: Okay. Deputy Connolly is next.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: What year are we talking about?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: That is fine.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: I have one question on the HAP scheme. Following on from what Deputy Connolly said, the essence of what Mr. McCarthy said was that if there is a difference between what is allowed and the extra discretion and if somebody has to pay extra money to get that house, it is a matter between the tenant and the landlord. Is that legal? Does the scheme allow for it?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: It is. Under the rent supplement scheme, the situation was that the Department of Social Protection was not allowed to pay rent supplement in respect of a property which was not coming in at the threshold or ceiling it had set. Is that now gone?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: It was not available-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: In essence, the Deputy is correct that the HAP scheme as opposed to the rent supplement scheme has specific provision for the person who in many cases is on a fixed social welfare payment to find additional money over and above the differential rent and what is being paid by the local authority. Mr. McCarthy calls it flexibility or the exercise of choice, but the possibility of the person...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: I put it this way to copperfasten what the Deputy asked. The old scheme did not allow these top-up payments by the tenant. The new HAP scheme allows them. The Deputy asked whether Mr. McCarthy thought the new scheme was facilitating these top-up payments and he was neutral on it. He is now saying it is specifically provided for in the scheme.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: It facilitates it.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: We are getting there. The other scheme did not allow or facilitate it. This scheme allows and facilitates it. It may not be actively be promoted but-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: -----to be clear to the Deputy and those watching it is important to know that the new scheme facilitates and supports that. That is the essential point I want to make on that. Deputy Burke is next, Deputy Madigan having left the meeting.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: Before we go into the second round, I wish to put a few points to Mr. McCarthy. This is a legacy issue and may not be an issue for the Department of Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government. Some people have still not paid non-principal private residence tax. The answer to a recent parliamentary question indicated that €30 million was collected last year. With fines...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: It is collected by Revenue. I am told the local authority-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: I am talking about the second home tax.

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