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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the NTMA on Matters Relating to its Operation (22 Jul 2025)

Pearse Doherty: I thank our witnesses and welcome them to the committee. I wish to clarify a couple of issues. I will start with the fraudulent transfer. On mature reflection was there not a red flag in relation to that transaction the NTMA should have noticed? In respect of the second capital call was there not a red flag on how that was being asked for that should have triggered something in the NTMA...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the NTMA on Matters Relating to its Operation (22 Jul 2025)

Pearse Doherty: At this stage I am sure Mr. O’Connor as CEO can see that there should have been a trigger. Given how that call happened and that he now knows that the request and how it was requested was not in keeping with previous requests-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the NTMA on Matters Relating to its Operation (22 Jul 2025)

Pearse Doherty: At this stage is Mr. O’Connor saying he has no concerns regarding what should have been a red flag?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the NTMA on Matters Relating to its Operation (22 Jul 2025)

Pearse Doherty: Would Mr. O'Connor describe this as a sophisticated or quite a basic scam?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the NTMA on Matters Relating to its Operation (22 Jul 2025)

Pearse Doherty: If you are scammed for €1,000, the scammers know what they are doing and they move the money very quickly. Some of this money has been recovered. They stole €5 million of taxpayers' money that was under the NTMA's control. At what level of authority in the NTMA is somebody able to release a capital call of that nature?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the NTMA on Matters Relating to its Operation (22 Jul 2025)

Pearse Doherty: My question concerns the €5 million payment.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the NTMA on Matters Relating to its Operation (22 Jul 2025)

Pearse Doherty: What level of authority does it involve?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the NTMA on Matters Relating to its Operation (22 Jul 2025)

Pearse Doherty: What is the senior level?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the NTMA on Matters Relating to its Operation (22 Jul 2025)

Pearse Doherty: I do not want Mr. Black to identify individuals, assign any blame or cast aspersions but I think it is a fair question. We are talking about taxpayers' money and we want to make sure it does not happen again. At what level can €5 million be authorised as a capital call? Is is at CEO level or assistant level? Is that one of the concerns - that there should be more checks?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the NTMA on Matters Relating to its Operation (22 Jul 2025)

Pearse Doherty: I do not want to identify anybody. That is a fair point. When a capital call comes in regarding a drawdown, which may not be in keeping with the previous one and may or may not have raised a red flag, I presume that individual does not have the authority to make the capital call. There is somebody else. Is there another rung after that? I want to know whether it is one more step, two...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the NTMA on Matters Relating to its Operation (22 Jul 2025)

Pearse Doherty: The process can be dealt with by one individual. I want to know how many steps are involved.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the NTMA on Matters Relating to its Operation (22 Jul 2025)

Pearse Doherty: Would it involve three or four signatures?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the NTMA on Matters Relating to its Operation (22 Jul 2025)

Pearse Doherty: That is fair enough. Will the Comptroller and Auditor General be asked to look at this?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the NTMA on Matters Relating to its Operation (22 Jul 2025)

Pearse Doherty: Excellent. On what date did the NTMA notice the €5 million was stolen?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the NTMA on Matters Relating to its Operation (22 Jul 2025)

Pearse Doherty: Fair play to the staff who identified that and the recovery efforts so far. Did the NTMA contact An Garda Síochána on 8 July?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the NTMA on Matters Relating to its Operation (22 Jul 2025)

Pearse Doherty: Did it contact the Department of Finance?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the NTMA on Matters Relating to its Operation (22 Jul 2025)

Pearse Doherty: It was reported on 12 July that the Department of Finance did not know anything until-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the NTMA on Matters Relating to its Operation (22 Jul 2025)

Pearse Doherty: All the steps have been fulfilled. How do we know it will not happen today? We are two weeks on and the NTMA has not been able to confirm whether or not there should have been a red flag. These are international criminals. In some cases, they are syndicates. How do we know that the procedures are robust enough now?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the NTMA on Matters Relating to its Operation (22 Jul 2025)

Pearse Doherty: Has the NTMA put steps in place? I know all of that and I appreciate it but has the NTMA done something since then? Are there now two more layers? If a call comes through that is not similar to the first call, is it a case of "red flags please all around and let's escalate this"? Has the NTMA done anything in the past two weeks as the investigation is ongoing to ensure we are not...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, and Taoiseach: Engagement with the NTMA on Matters Relating to its Operation (22 Jul 2025)

Pearse Doherty: Does the NTMA have an interim report?

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