Joe McHugh (Donegal, Fine Gael)
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Fáilte ar ais, a Aire Stáit Noonan. I often wonder who listens to the words of TDs. In fairness, at the different times the Minister of State has been here, he has listened. He has been compassionate and showed empathy. However, this is an important question for departmental officials in particular. I certainly do not want to go down the road of bashing officials. They are hardworking officials who try their best in the main. I know that some officials took time out yesterday today and yesterday to prepare the answer that the Minister of State has in his hands tonight. Phone calls would have been made and emails would have been sent, then there would be agreement on some wording. In a nutshell, the public would see this as holding the line for the officials and Ministers in charge of the purse strings.

I understand this up to a point. Departmental officials and Ministers have been holding the line on the defective blocks issue for the best part of a decade. That line has been to frustrate, obfuscate and delay the defective blocks scheme. In a nutshell, this scheme is creating substantial shortfalls for over 50% of applicants. It is not a 100% scheme and should not be labelled as a 100% scheme. It is a shortfall in the region of €100,000, which is an average. The bit that I want to get across to officials and Ministers tonight in the Departments of housing, the Taoiseach and public expenditure is this. This is a multifaceted problem and a complex issue. It is not correct to just land everything on the doorstep of the Department of housing. This is a chain of command issue.

I ask the people who happen to be listening tonight or may be interested in listening tomorrow to visualise a scenario where their home, irrespective of size, has defective blocks, which they bought in good faith. Their house is falling and they still have an outstanding organisation. Their house is worthless and of no value. They knock down their house but continue to pay a mortgage on a house that does not exist. I will say that again. They continue to pay a mortgage on a house that does not exist. They pay a mortgage on a greenfield site. Further, they will need to raise upwards of €100,000, which they will add to your mortgage. Is this fair? I think everybody in this House knows the answer to that.

Within the current legislation, there is scope to raise the cap by 10%, which would add €42,000 to the scheme. Even with this, there is a shortfall. Ultimately, this will benefit 50% of applicants. My question tonight is straightforward. Will the Minister raise the cap by 10%, as is provided for in the legislation?

Malcolm Noonan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an Teachta as an cheist seo. He knows I am aware of the deep trauma that this has caused families in areas affected by defective concrete blocks. Seeing reporting as I have in the media, it has a significant impact on families.

As the Deputy is aware, the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, commenced the Remediation of Dwellings Damaged by the Use of Defective Concrete Blocks Act 2022, the DCB Act, on 22 June 2023, which provides for the enhanced grant scheme, and adopted the related regulations on 29 June 2023. The Act includes significant improvements to the previous scheme, such as increasing the previous scheme's 90% maximum grant to a 100% grant for all eligible costs under all remediation options 1 to 5. The maximum grant cap for option 1, demolition and rebuild, was increased to €420,000 from €247,500. A revised application process was introduced, which now only requires the homeowner to submit an initial building condition assessment at minimal cost, recoupable on entry to the scheme. Alternative accommodation and storage costs are included, subject to a maximum of €20,000. For works carried out under remediation options 2 to 5, a second grant option is available for such a home in the future if blockwork which was not removed as part of the initial remediation work subsequently proves defective in accordance with IS 465.

As the Deputy is aware, the defective concrete blocks Act contains a review mechanism that allows the Government to increase the overall grant scheme cap of €420,000 by up to 10%. In accordance with the conditions set down in section 11 of the Act, this review cannot take place any sooner than 12 months after the coming into the operation of this section of the Act, that is, after 29 June 2024. I am not familiar with the 50% figure quoted by the Deputy. I understand there is no robust data set yet relating to build costs, reflective of the fact the current scheme has only been in operation for less than a year.

Following a request from the Department, the Society of Chartered Surveyors Ireland, SCSI, recently provided updated cost reports for the north west and mid-west regions to the Department. These updated cost reports were received on 29 March 2024 and cover demolition and reconstruction costs; concrete path around the house; disconnection and reconnection of utilities; making good the driveway and garden; professional fees; and VAT at 13.5% on building costs and 23% on professional fees. Officials in my Department have been in touch with the chair of the expert group with regard to reconstituting the group to undertake a review of the rates prescribed in the 2023 regulations on foot of the updated cost reports received from the SCSI. Once the expert group has completed its review, it will provide advice to the Minister for his consideration as to whether both the grant rates and scheme cap should be increased, and if so by what amount. I hope this gives some assurance to the Deputy that progress has been made. That date in June is critical. I think that reconvening the group will be a positive step forward for people affected.

Joe McHugh (Donegal, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State for the response. He is correct in saying that the legislation states that, within 12 months of the legislation being enacted, the Minister of State has the discretion to increase it by up to 10%.

It is important that I point something out. Even at this early stage of the scheme, while the officials' interpretation is that there is no robust data, there is human data. There has been trauma for ten years. There is anguish. Families are struggling. People want to see light at the end of the tunnel. I ask the officials who are listening to this debate tonight or who may be in a position to listen to it tomorrow, the next day or the following day to take seriously the human impact of what is happening. Brexit and Covid-19 landed on our shores. We dealt with them immediately, but we did not deal with this issue immediately. It has still not been dealt with. It has to have the focus of all Departments - that may include the Department of Finance or the Department of the Taoiseach - at a high level. I have called for this previously.

I welcome that the Department has been in touch with the chair of the expert group about reconstituting it to undertake a review of the rates. That is important, but I ask that the voice of the homeowners be at the table as well. I have been calling for that continually because the word "expert" is used loosely in the world of politics. The people who have gone through this and been campaigning are experts in their own right and should be around that table.

The Minister of State's bona fides have been consistent the whole time. He has shown empathy. In the final months of his tenure in his Department, I ask that he please use his efforts, his wisdom and his understanding of the human condition to try to bring a bit of light to the end of the tunnel. I thank him for attending and I ask that the senior Minister consider the possibility of 10%.

I am looking for a wee bit of time. I will degress, but I will not digress. I have called for two actions: the transfer of eligibility for pensioners who cannot hand theirs houses down to their children; and penalty-free downsizing. These two policies would not cost the state 1 cent. I was not listened to, but I still have them on my agenda and I am looking for them to be addressed even at the eleventh hour of this Government.

Malcolm Noonan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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We will take on board those last few points.

Regarding the date of 29 June, the Deputy will be aware that the review can take place. The Minister has consistently acted with empathy on this issue. He has shown that empathy in his engagement with affected families. The reconstitution of the working group is one part of it. There is also a subgroup, which met from January to April 2024 with a focus on the financial aspects of the scheme. That subgroup included representatives from Engineers Ireland, Insurance Ireland, Banking and Payments Federation Ireland, the Department of Finance, local authorities and homeowner action groups. As such, homeowners are represented on the subgroup. The Deputy is right that the voice of the homeowners should be at the table, and it is. That is important.

The date of 29 June that triggers the review under section 11 of the Act is an important timeline. Data is important, but I take on board the point that the lived experience of the residents is equally important. The Minister is cognisant of that as well.

This is a good scheme. The Government and the Department want to ensure that it works for families and that the injustice they have suffered for too long is addressed in a meaningful way by the Government. We give our commitment to that.