Gino Kenny (Dublin Mid West, People Before Profit Alliance)
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10. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence what type of operations Irish military forces might engage in that are not currently allowed under the UN Charter if the triple lock is removed ; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [20888/24]

Gino Kenny (Dublin Mid West, People Before Profit Alliance)
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16. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence if he will retain the triple lock per the commitment in the programme for Government; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [20885/24]

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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34. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence the specific issues he has with the triple lock system that need to be addressed; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [21888/24]

Gino Kenny (Dublin Mid West, People Before Profit Alliance)
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My questions relate to the triple lock. What type of operations does the Tánaiste envisage the Irish military forces being engaged in that are not allowed under the UN Charter if the triple lock is removed?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 10, 16 and 34 together.

As I stated earlier in response to questions from Deputy Howlin and others, we are living in a new era in Europe and in the world in which Ireland also faces significant new security and defence challenges, and we too must consider how best to respond. Given the changing nature of international conflict and geopolitics, it is appropriate and necessary at this time to amend existing legislation with regard to overseas deployments. This will ensure that our legislation is fully up to date and fit for purpose, and will thereby allow us to dispatch the Defence Forces overseas to respond to situations where UN Security Council members are preventing agreement on a vital peacekeeping operation or to support crisis management evacuation operations involving our citizens.

In addition to modifying the triple lock, it is also intended to amend provisions relating to the deployment of Defence Forces personnel in non-combatant evacuation operations and other security duties overseas. This is particularly to support Irish citizens and the changes proposed will allow us to respond to crisis situations with more agility and clarity.

I am happy to provide the House with some examples where the existing triple lock provision has created issues by potentially restricting the deployment of members of the Defence Forces overseas. The most recent occurred in 2022 when the possibility of a UN Security Council veto emerged in relation to the renewal of UN authorisation for EUFOR Operation Althea in Bosnia and Herzegovina, where five members of the Defence Forces are currently deployed. Had this mandate extension been vetoed, we would have had to withdraw from the mission. At the time, using our membership of the UN Security Council, we successfully influenced the other members to renew the mandate. Had we been unsuccessful in our efforts, however, our contingent would have had to withdraw given the current provisions under the triple lock.

In 2017, the Maritime Analysis and Operations Centre Narcotics, MAOC(N), which is an international maritime intelligence centre supported by the European Union, requested a Naval Service ship to assist with maritime drug interdiction operations. Although Ireland is a strong supporter of the centre and was, in fact, one of the founding members, consideration could not be given to deploying a ship given there would no UN mandate for such an operation.

Another example occurred in 2015 when the European Union established a security mission in the Mediterranean known as Operation Sophia. This mission did not have a UN mandate until 2016 and, as a result, Ireland could not participate until then. The same concerns have since arisen in respect of Operation Althea and could arise in the future where a potential UN Security Council member veto will result in Ireland having to withdraw from the mission under current legislative provisions.

These are the kinds of deployments where the current provisions have created problems for Ireland in terms of our contribution to international peace and security, and it is situations such as these that the legislative changes proposed are attempting to overcome. No new peacekeeping mission has been sanctioned by the UN Security Council since 2014.

It is important, however, that I again emphasise that any legislative proposals will remain fully consistent with the principles of the UN Charter and international law. The proposed changes are not about Ireland turning its back on UN peacekeeping. Ireland is and will remain fully committed to the UN. The purpose of these modifications is to reinforce Ireland's ability to pursue an independent foreign policy by removing the power of UN Security Council permanent members to veto our national sovereign decisions. Any modification will continue to require Government and Dáil approval for the dispatch of Defence Forces personnel to take part in peacekeeping and similar missions, and will do nothing to change Ireland's traditional position of, and position on, military neutrality, which is characterised by Ireland's non-participation in any military alliance.

Gino Kenny (Dublin Mid West, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I do not trivialise the situations the Irish Defence Forces have encountered but there is a distinct narrative by the Government that Irish neutrality is up for grabs. The Tánaiste can shake his head all he wants but the rhetoric coming from the Government and EU leaders is that we are almost in a pre-war situation in Europe. We in the Opposition have been very concerned about this rhetoric and the militarisation of Europe. This is why we hold neutrality sacred. We do not want to be drawn into any imperialist war that could take place on mainland Europe. This is why we believe the triple lock is important to keep and not to compromise. The Tánaiste wants to compromise the triple lock. He wants us to have a double lock. This is concerning with regard to the overall strategy of neutrality in Ireland.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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On the same theme, the Tánaiste said Ireland faces security and defence challenges. He went on to list instances in which it could have been possible that a veto would be used to stop us participating in some kind of peacekeeping. According to the triple lock we participate in peacekeeping with the endorsement of the UN. I honestly think he scraped the bottom of the barrel when he said that in 2022 in relation to a UN mandate in Bosnia-Herzegovina we nearly did not get what we wanted at the UN. We got it because we were able to negotiate it. Then he spoke about a narcotics operation at sea in 2017 and the peacekeeping mission in the Mediterranean. The Tánaiste is really scraping the barrel. He said there has been no obstacle to us participating in peacekeeping since 2014. Why is he taking the method that we brought into existence because people would not vote in a treaty that did not contain guarantee over our neutrality? They got that guarantee through the triple lock and now without asking people what they think, he wants to dismiss it all on the basis of very flimsy responses to the House about the why. The why is what we need to know, along with the where and the how with regard to why the Tánaiste thinks it will be necessary to remove the triple lock. Therefore, where would we send our troops and to do what, when, how and why? The Tánaiste needs to come up with better answers than he has given us.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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No peacekeeping mission has been approved by the UN Security Council since 2014.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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What ones have been blocked?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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No, you made the point there was no obstacle. None has been approved since 2014.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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But what ones have been blocked?

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Tánaiste to reply.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Kenny spoke about the militarisation of Europe and that he does not want to be involved in any imperial war. We are not going to be involved in any imperial war. We need a dose of reality in this House. We are not a military power and we are nowhere near being a military power. This is about peacekeeping and the methodology by which we can participate in peacekeeping. At the moment, Russia can veto participation by Ireland in a peacekeeping mission. There is a moral and ethical question here. Are we serious if we think a power like Russia can do this? By the way, it is the imperial power on the Continent of Europe. It has invaded a sovereign country that wanted to live in a democracy and it has visited the most appalling brutality in that country through the conduct of its military campaign. Some people in the House seem to be okay that a country and power such as this can veto our participation in peacekeeping. This is the reality. We know what it has done with the Wagner Group all over the world, including in Africa. That seems to be fine.

The European Union has no colonies. I do not see the European Union as an imperialist power. Deputy Kenny may, but this is one more of the false narratives that keep getting discussed in this debate. We get into this unreal surreal world where people speak about the militarisation of Europe and Ireland as if somehow we will assume massive military powers and resources in the next year or two and we will be out fighting everybody. That is not going to happen. That is not in the world of reality. Where we have distinguished ourselves is in peacekeeping, including in large operations such as UNIFIL UNDOF and in Chad in times past, where we were essential in ensuring that humanitarian aid got through. This was one of the biggest struggles we had on the UN Security Council. It is important that Deputies take note of this. They may say "nearly" but it is important to observe this. If every battle to maintain a humanitarian corridor, for example to northern Syria where Ireland was instrumental on the UN Security Council, and keep that corridor open-----

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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You did.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, we did.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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With the triple lock.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Would you listen for a second? The triple lock does not apply here. The politics of the Security Council is the point I am trying to enlighten Members on. The politics wanted to close it down. The permanent members wanted to close it down. This can happen at any time. My point is the Security Council, in my view, is dysfunctional in terms of these issues. There is no point in waiting until something terrible happens. Ireland incurred the wrath-----

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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What is the terrible thing?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I did not interrupt you Deputy and I am making some clear points. Ireland incurred the wrath of Ethiopia by strongly standing by a humanitarian measure. Our international presence is humanitarian. It is peacekeeping. Please stop trying to portray what we are about here as some sort of erosion of our military neutrality, or a sort of engagement in militarisation and imperial powers. That is so absurd it needs to be called out. We need sane rational debate about where we are in the world today. I will not tolerate attempts to undermine sane rational debates. That is what I genuinely believe.

Gino Kenny (Dublin Mid West, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I agree with the Tánaiste that the UN Security Council is dysfunctional. Look at the role of the United States with regard to Israel and its conduct over the past seven months, whereby 35,000 people have been killed including 15,000 children. Think about this. It is absolutely dysfunctional. The United States has played a completely detrimental role in international relations. It has undermined human solidarity in terms of the UN. Ireland has played a key role in peacekeeping in the Middle East but this has been slowly eroded over recent years in terms of militarisation across the European complex. We just have to look at the European defence industrial strategy. Look at it. I ask anybody to have a look at it. Do not tell me this is not a precursor to a European army throughout Europe.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I rest my case. The Tánaiste made the case for me. He went through a litany of how Ireland has engaged in peacekeeping roles via the mechanism of the UN. He went through Chad and what we did in the north Syrian corridor. He said we were instrumental and met opposition but convinced people. We did this with the triple lock it in place. The Tánaiste still has not given us an argument that involves peacekeeping with regard to why the triple lock should be removed. Every argument he made makes our case that we have taken part in peacekeeping operations with the triple lock in place. This means we cannot engage our troops in other conflicts without the approval of a UN mandate. He banged on and on about the obstacles that come via Russia and not, as Deputy Kenny has just highlighted, the obstacles that come to peacekeeping via the US on the Security Council. The number of times it has vetoed UN resolutions on Palestine, the Middle East was not mentioned.

It is very one-sided but it is also very confusing that the Tánaiste is trying to make a case for ending the triple lock but he is actually making the case that it has been a good thing to have in place while we also engage in peacekeeping missions.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Again, the situation in Syria was not about peacekeeping so we were not involved in Syrian peacekeeping. It was during our membership of the UN Security Council when we gained very significant insight in respect of the behaviour of permanent members of the UN Security Council. The bottom line is that the permanent members should not have a hold on Irish sovereignty. They should not dictate whether we participate in a peacekeeping mission. A peacekeeping mission has not been approved since 2014.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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What ones have been blocked?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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There has been none approved since 2014.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Which ones have been blocked? Which ones have been vetoed?

Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The time is up. I want to welcome 96 students from Tullow, County Carlow, many of whom are in the Gallery. I hope they enjoy their tour and are inspired by the proceedings.