Dáil debates

Tuesday, 30 April 2024

Ceisteanna ó Cheannairí - Leaders' Questions

 

2:00 pm

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Government has displayed incredible incompetence in recent days in dealing with migration and returns to Britain. The Minister for Justice, Deputy McEntee, claimed at the justice committee that 80% of those applying for asylum in this State are coming from Britain via the North. At the weekend, the Tánaiste then carelessly jumped in two feet first, pointing to Britain's Rwanda deal and claiming it had led to an increase in the numbers of people crossing the Border, despite him not having any evidence to that effect. His error of judgment was a gift to the Tory Party, which is desperate for a row with Europe, Ireland and anyone else on the issue of migration.

The Tánaiste went on to tell a press conference in London yesterday that the claim of the Minister, Deputy McEntee, about asylum seekers crossing the Border is not based on statistics, evidence or data. The Minister for Justice says one thing. The Tánaiste contradicts her and says another with both it seems making claims without any supporting data. The incompetence is off the charts. At a time when we need calm and an assured response, we get panic. At a time when we need competence and clear communication, we get contradiction. This has been a feature confirming the widespread view that the Government is not on top of issues relating to migration and that nobody competent is in charge. Scrambling around to turn hotels, bed and breakfast accommodation and office blocks into direct provision centres or having tents line the length of Mount Street in Dublin are not the hallmarks of a well-managed system.

Ireland is a welcoming, compassionate country and there is no room for racism here. We know that there are those who seek to exploit this serious issue to sow division and hatred, and that is why clarity is so important. The truth is that the Government has, from the beginning, made a complete mess of the handling of this situation. We need an immigration system that is fair, efficient and enforced, and a system with common sense that safeguards social cohesion and protects human rights. Both can be done effectively in parallel. However, the Government's chaotic approach, as evidenced, is evidence that nobody is in charge and that it does not really have a plan to get to grips with the situation.

Tá cur chuige an Rialtais maidir le hinimirce trína chéile. Tá daoine ag mothú nach bhfuil aon duine i gceannas maidir leis an neamhábaltacht idir an tAire Dlí agus Cirt, an Teachta McEntee, agus an Tánaiste.

The Government says it has an agreement with Britain but the British Government says it does not. Which is it? If the Government does have such an agreement, has the Irish State made use of the agreement and if not, why not? People want a system that is decent and fair. They also expect the rules to be enforced. It seems from recent revelations that this has not been a priority for the Minister, Deputy McEntee, or for the Government. We now have a situation of confusion in Government and of contradiction and chaos between the Minister for Justice and the Tánaiste. Which of them, if either, is speaking correctly? Not satisfied with that, the Government has managed to spread confusion between two governments about an agreement that exists or does not exist. Which is it? Will the Taoiseach please bring clarity to that question?

2:05 pm

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

First, I agree with the Deputy's comments about this being a welcoming country and about there being no room for racism in the country. It is important that we live in a country where the leader of the Government and the leader of the Opposition can come together in our national Parliament and say that. That is important, and I welcome that.

However, let me say this: there is no confusion and there is clarity. The reality of the situation is, as the Deputy knows better than most, that we have a common travel area between the United Kingdom and Ireland. As she knows, again, better than most, I imagine, is a really important common travel area. As she also knows, when Britain made the decision to leave the European Union, an agreement was put in place, one that was confirmed by the British Government today with regard to an operating agreement for migrants and refugees to be returned in both directions, if somebody was coming here from the UK or vice versa. It is also true to say, and a statement of fact, that in March our High Court in a ruling said that there was not an adequate legislative basis for this. The Minister for Justice has moved very swiftly and with the full support of all members of Government to clarify that and to close what I have described as a legal loophole. I very much welcome that.

I have no intention whatsoever of this country being dragged into politics in Britain. I am very well aware of the politics of Britain. It can have its migration policy and do what it wishes on that, and we have ours. Ours is a rules-based, firm migration system that endeavours to provide assistance to people in humanitarian need but also one that has to make it clear to people that if they do not have a right to be here, they need to be asked to and it needs to be ensured that they leave more quickly. A number of measures have been taken by the Minister, Deputy McEntee, to bring that about.

For anybody watching this in Britain or Ireland, this is just one of a number of measures we are taking to make sure we come at this issue from all angles so that we can properly address what is a very serious situation in Ireland and across the European Union. The legislation is one element but so too is the decision that the Minister made to introduce faster processing for ten countries designated as safe countries, and also the decision she made last week to add Nigeria to that list. We know that the highest percentage of people coming here at the moment are from Nigeria and we know that as night follows day, when we introduce faster processing, the number of people coming from that country will fall. We have seen that time and time again in recent weeks. It is also why the Minister has made the decision to free up from desk jobs in immigration the work of 100 gardaí so that they can now work more closely with the PSNI on an important collaboration between the PSNI and An Garda Síochána, and also so they can work on deportations.

I do welcome, in the midst of the politics of Britain, the comments of the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland yesterday. He very clearly said that he was, in his word, "comfortable" with the Irish proposal, and he talked about the importance of the two governments working together on protecting the common travel area from any abuse. Next week in Dublin, the common travel area co-ordination group was due to meet anyway. That was already scheduled. That will be an opportunity for the Minister to engage with them. This is a group that brings together officials from our two jurisdictions as well.

Regarding the 80%, or the over 80%, I also want to be clear on this. As the Deputy knows, and I presume she supports, we have an open border. People coming back and forth over the Border is invaluable for peace and prosperity on the island. However, it is also important that we listen to people on the front line. It is important that we listen to the men and women working in the International Protection Office, IPO, who tell the Minister - who then has the good form to tell this House and a committee - that they are now seeing a very significant increase in the number of people who have arrived seeking protection and who have come from the UK. It would have been an irresponsible Government that would not have shared that. We had seen a lot of activity at the airport. We took strong measures at the airport in terms of people arriving without passports, Garda checks and the like, and we always have to be agile and flexible in our response. There is no disagreement in government regarding the fact that we are seeing a very significant increase of people presenting at our IPO who have come here from the UK.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Taoiseach now claims that there is clarity with the British Government. He might alert us as to when he received that clarification from the British Prime Minister. Has the British Government clarified that it does in fact have a legal obligation to accept returns? It has acknowledged operational arrangements but it has not gone so far as to acknowledge a legal obligation. Can the Taoiseach confirm for me that this is in fact the case?

Will he add some more detail, while he is at it? I am fully aware of the common travel area, as are we all. I am also aware that Brexit happened and was a huge disrupter. Will the Taoiseach please give us more clarity on this?

I asked a question about confusion in the Government. The Tánaiste is contradicting the Minister for Justice, saying that a claim she made is not based on fact, data or statistics. Will the Taoiseach clarify which, if either of the Minister for Justice or the Tánaiste is speaking accurately?

The mishandling of this by the Government and by the Tánaiste has been a gift to the Tories. If the Taoiseach follows politics over there, as no doubt he does, I have no doubt that he is well aware of that fact too.

2:15 pm

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What I am very well aware of is not allowing this country to become a pawn in any politics in the United Kingdom. I hope that is something that the Deputy and I can agree on because as political leaders in this Parliament, I hope the Deputy will also agree that we have every right to set our own migration policy, we have every right and obligation to make sure that migration policy is rules-based, efficient and effective and, we also have every right when countries enter agreements that those agreements are honoured. This is a country that honours our agreements. I have said clearly that the British Government has acknowledged that there are operational arrangements in place. I welcome that fact.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

But not legal obligations.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am very clear that those operational agreements are in place under the common travel area and I am very clear that we are going to legislate so that we will have absolute clarity so it can work. I am also really clear that it is only one of a number of things that we need to do. The more significant thing that has been done in recent weeks is not the legislation today but the faster processing time because we know that is what helps make a very positive impact on reducing the numbers of people coming to our country.

The 80% figure is based on what the Minister for Justice was told. All members of the Government accept and understand that. The point the Tánaiste was making was not in contradiction. He was making the point that there is not a definitive count taken of the people who go over the Border. The Deputy knows that and I know that. The figure is based on the information we see in the International Protection Office and we would do well to listen to the people on the front line processing those applications.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not an answer.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The recent debate on immigration has been dominated by disinformation. That is regrettable because it is essential we stick to the facts. Because when we talk about immigration, we are talking about people - people who are seeking refuge here in a country that is a welcoming country. Disinformation is making this country less safe for everyone. Communities are suffering because of far-right activity and because of a rise in racism. We all condemn that.

However, the Taoiseach needs to get a handle on this because his Government’s immigration policy has failed. The clearest evidence of that failure is just around the corner with hundreds of people sleeping in tents and makeshift shelters in desperately unsanitary conditions on Mount Street. I was there again this morning, meeting some of those people and also speaking with local residents and traders who are sympathetic to the plight of those in tents, but also deeply frustrated at the deteriorating situation, with more and more tents each day, no access to sanitation and no sign of any action from Government. It is inhumane and unsustainable. The Government has no accommodation strategy, even while big public buildings like Baggot Street Hospital sit scandalously idle nearby. The Government is not even on top of the situation when it comes to reliable data on immigration. The Minister for Justice has been unable to give accurate figures on migration. It is extraordinary to rely apparently on anecdote when we see so much disinformation circulating and when we see cynical attempts to turn a delicate situation into an election issue.

There is a clear need for EU states to act in concert on this but the migration pact announced by the European People's Party, EPP, the European grouping of the Taoiseach's party, is incapable of addressing the underlying causes of migration into Europe and it has glaring deficiencies on human rights. The Taoiseach’s predecessor refuted the allegation that this amounted to a European Rwanda scheme. But, now, it seems the Taoiseach is not just looking to introduce something like the Rwanda scheme but rather to enforce the Rwanda scheme itself.

We just spoke about how last month saw a High Court decision that Ireland cannot designate Britain as a safe third country for the purpose of returning people seeking asylum. The Taoiseach may have secured approval today at Cabinet to introduce emergency legislation to redesignate Britain as a safe third country but there are two serious issues relating to that proposal. First, under section 21 of the International Protection Act 2015, a safe third country is only safe for a particular applicant if that country is willing to readmit them.

We cannot force Britain or any other country for that matter to take back applicants whom we turn away. We have heard about an operational agreement but we need clarity on what that is and what obligation it places on Britain.

In that High Court case, it was argued that the Rwanda policy would make it impossible to designate the UK as a safe third country. The court did not have to deal with that argument because it was then hypothetical but since then, most regrettably, that policy has become the law in Britain. Deputy Ó Ríordáin and I, together with Westminster British Labour MP Stella Creasy, have for months been raising concerns about the Rwanda Bill and its undermining of the Good Friday Agreement's requirement for equivalence of human rights protections north and south of the Border. The Government should have listened to us then. If the Rwanda policy is fundamentally incompatible with human rights laws, as the UN High Commissioner says, how can the Government possibly designate the UK as safe while that policy remains law in Britain?

2:25 pm

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Deputy for the question. First, we have data and we gather data relating to the International Protection Office. While I am not suggesting the Deputy is, we cannot ignore the reality of the island that we live on and the peace settlement that we have on this island. So, we do not count the number of people who come over the Border by nationality or anything else; we know that.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Even though the people-----

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Howlin knows this well too. As I imagine Deputy Bacik knows, when people present at the International Protection Office, very experienced staff, who have done incredible work in a very intense environment, carry out interviews and the likes, and garner, not anecdotes, but data and information on how people have come to our country. They are telling Government and we are telling the Deputies opposite that the overwhelming majority of people now presenting in that office have come from the UK or down from Northern Ireland. Every week when I come into this House, I hear that we would like an honest and open debate about migration. Well, there it is; that is the honest and open reality.

Photo of Aodhán Ó RíordáinAodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin Bay North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Tánaiste does not agree with the Taoiseach.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Now let us discuss how we can address those issues. Let us discuss how the PSNI and An Garda Síochána can work more closely. Let us discuss how we can work to protect the common travel area from abuse. Let us work to see how we can - I welcome the Deputy's comments - work at an EU level because I do not believe we can go it alone. We may differ on some of the detail of the migration paths and I look forward to the opportunity to debate that in the House, but I very much agree on the ultimate need to overhaul EU rules.

I believe the way the Deputy has described the situation on Mount Street is fair. There are two aspects to Mount Street. The first is the need to provide all those vulnerable people living in tents with access to accommodation and a safer setting as quickly as possible. My colleague the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, is working very actively on that with a number of other agencies and organisations. That is happening. Deputy Ó Ríordáin does not need to shake his head; it is happening in my constituency.

The second is that once we clear Mount Street and provide people with a safer setting and access to sanitation, we need to make sure that the laws of the land are applied and it is not allowed to happen again because we do not live in a country where makeshift shantytowns are allowed to just develop. We do not and we cannot because the laws of the land are there. I am saying very clearly the plan is to provide the people on Mount Street with better accommodation and access to sanitation and not to allow a situation where ad hocery can come about in terms of the development of accommodation.

Photo of Chris AndrewsChris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is happening now.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is a really important thing to do. The people on Mount Street and people in Deputy Bacik's constituency would believe that is an important thing to do.

Regarding the legislation the Minister for Justice intends to bring forward, she today received permission to draft that. The Minister intends to enact legislation by the end of this month. In that legislation she will outline how she intends to respond to the issues that were brought to the fore by the High Court in March of this year. I believe there is a way of doing that, as do the Attorney General, the Minister and all of the Government.

Regarding Rwanda and everything else, it is not the policy of this Government but we obviously need to ensure our rules are enforced, which is really important. People in this country want to see a rules-based migration system.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I raised with the Taoiseach three specific points on which I sought a response on which the Government has failed in its in its approach. The first was on the provision of accommodation and safe shelter. I am glad the Taoiseach said that safe shelter will be provided to those currently forced to sleep in tents on Mount Street but we need to know when. I have been engaging, as have all the other local representatives, with the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, on this but we are deeply frustrated, as are residents as well as the men living in tents. We need to know when that will happen.

The second is the data issue. We need to know where that data is coming from. We understand there is no provision currently for gathering the data on how people enter. We need to know more than just conjectured figures plucked from the air by the Minister. That is crucial in order to create that fair, efficient and rules-based migration process that we in Labour also want to see.

We need clarity on the Rwanda Bill too. While the Taoiseach says an operational arrangement is in place with Britain, what is it? There is a clear difference of approach coming forward from the British Prime Minister, Mr. Sunak, on this. Will the Government publish that agreement and what obligation will it impose on the British Government? We are all of course conscious of the importance of the common travel area. After Brexit, all parties reunited in wanting to see no hard border imposed on the island of Ireland and it is baffling to see some republican parties apparently now reneging on that ideal. That is deeply unhelpful.

2:35 pm

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Thank you Deputy.

Photo of Ivana BacikIvana Bacik (Dublin Bay South, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We need clarity of the issue of accommodation provision, on data and on how he is going to deal with the impact of the Rwanda Bill.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not think it is objectively fair to say the Government has failed on accommodation. I do not think there is a community across Ireland who believes that. If you look at the scale of challenge this country has faced and the amount we have done as a people to provide accommodation in very difficult circumstances, that needs to be acknowledged. There are no easy solutions when it comes to accommodation. Again, I am not suggesting the Deputy does this but all too often in our migration debates in Ireland, we start the migration discussion from an accommodation supply point of view. That is the wrong place to start. We need to start from a migration rules-based system and its efficiency in order that people who do not have a right to be here are asked to leave more quickly and that we can stand over the rules that are in place. I believe that is what the people are getting frustrated about right across this country. They want to help people in need-----

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It depends who is in charge.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----but they also want to know that there is a functioning rules-based system as there is and on which the Minister, Deputy McEntee, has taken a number of measures to make more effective.

Regarding the data issue, I am very confident that the information that has been provided to the Government on processing times is exactly what people are seeing in the International Protection Office. The Department's firm assessment, based on the experience of staff and others working in the field, and on the material they are gathering at interviews, is that over 80% of applicants applying for protection have-----

Photo of Aodhán Ó RíordáinAodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin Bay North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Has he tried asking the Tánaiste?

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----entered over-----

Photo of Aodhán Ó RíordáinAodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin Bay North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Tánaiste does not agree with the Taoiseach.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Pardon me?

Photo of Aodhán Ó RíordáinAodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin Bay North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Tánaiste does not agree with you.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sorry now, let us not have a conversation.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I speak for the Government of which the Tánaiste is a part and I am very confident in saying that the Tánaiste, I as Taoiseach and all members and parties of the Government are very clear on this. The Tánaiste made a valid point yesterday that does not contradict the Minister, Deputy McEntee's point at all.

Photo of Martin KennyMartin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It literally does.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Taoiseach.

Photo of Michael LowryMichael Lowry (Tipperary, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The subsidised provision of fibre broadband across all regions of the country is critical to Ireland's economic and social progress. Despite being plagued by delays, National Broadband Ireland has stated it is confident that all 227 deployment areas will be completed by early 2028. While the broadband project may be almost four years away from its projected completion, existing commercial suppliers of broadband, such as Imagine, which services large parts of the country, now has an immediate and serious financial viability problem. Imagine is now closely examining its immediate future in the market and the outlook for it is bleak without Government support. Imagine is one of the key suppliers of high-speed broadband using fixed wireless access technology. It currently has 47,000 customers across every county in Ireland of whom 2,400 are in Tipperary. These are predominantly rural connections. Some 40,000 of its customers fall into the defined national broadband intervention area, which ensures they will be connected to high-speed broadband within four years if the projected completion dates are met. If Imagine is forced to wind down in the coming months without a planned transition to the NBI, there will be a blackout for an unsuspecting 47,000 customers. The impact of this would be catastrophic. Allowing the unplanned wind-down of this commercial provider would set back the impacted regions across the country for years. The threat posed to businesses, emergency and medical services, schools, remote workers, farmers and all local service providers is incalculable. Community centres and local charities and sports clubs would lose an invaluable local link. Communicating online with loved ones abroad would almost become impossible. Homes and businesses that depend on having reliable contact would be cast adrift. Positive advancements made around rural regions of the country would begin to evaporate. Restoring them could realistically take decades. It would plunge large parts of the country back to pre-broadband days. The Government needs to give serious consideration to this very real eventuality. I ask the Taoiseach and his relevant Ministers to urgently meet existing suppliers such as Imagine.

The Government needs to identify a constructive plan that will ensure the continuation of high-speed broadband services while work is under way to roll out the national plan. Provisions must be made for the real possibility that thousands of people in Tipperary and across the country face blackout if private broadband suppliers pull the plug on the only services currently available to the customers.

2:45 pm

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Deputy Lowry for raising this important issue. Let us begin on a point of absolute agreement. The Government does not wish in any way to see any rural area, or indeed any area of Ireland, least of all in County Tipperary, lose connectivity. That is the exact opposite of what we have been working to achieve and making good progress on over recent years with the national broadband plan, which at its heart has been specially designed to support rural and remote areas, which were at risk of getting left behind without intervention. Ultimately, as the Deputy knows, the national broadband plan will connect 564,000 rural properties. I am very pleased that it is now rolling out on time and on budget but I take seriously the point the Deputy makes. While, as he will understand, I cannot comment on an individual private company, it is fair to say any commercial operator would, of course, have been aware of the Government's national broadband plan. There are regulatory processes that need to be observed, but the Department of communications has been engaging with the company and I encourage that engagement to continue for the reasons the Deputy has outlined. The company has also been engaging with ComReg, which, again, is part of its regulatory obligations. Our absolute concern here is that there cannot be disruption to consumers. Any such disruption has to be mitigated against and minimised for all the reasons the Deputy has outlined, whether that is remote working, remote working hubs, remote learning hubs, farmers, small businesses, homes, community groups - all those who have come to rely on, and develop their business or their family life around, the provision of broadband and the very positive impact it has had.

For my part, on the basis of the Deputy's raising this in the Dáil, I will speak to the Minister, Deputy Ryan, and the Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, who is behind me. Their Department is abreast of the situation, and there is engagement between the Department of communications and ComReg. I will come back to Deputy Lowry and see if we can provide him with an update.

Photo of Michael LowryMichael Lowry (Tipperary, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome that the Taoiseach acknowledges that we cannot have disruption and that it should be avoided. A myriad of issues threaten people if Imagine and the other broadband suppliers decide to leave the market in advance of the arrival of the national broadband roll-out. We must do everything possible to avoid that scenario but at the moment, we are drifting towards it. I will be here representing the 2,400 householders in Tipperary, as well as others from other counties if something is not done. I know that there are meetings going ahead and that the Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, has been engaged in consultation but we need a bit of action. Even from the Taoiseach's reply to me, I can see that this is complicated and complex and that there are many agencies involved. There needs to be a political input here to get a solution to ensure there is not an interim period during which 47,000 homes are left without broadband. I ask the Taoiseach to follow up on this and ask the Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, to redouble his efforts to find a solution fairly quickly.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Deputy Lowry again for raising this issue. The Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, has been here to hear his comments directly, and he and the Minister, Deputy Ryan, will continue to keep Deputy Lowry updated on this. As I said, I cannot comment on an individual company, for obvious reasons. There is a regulatory process and engagement with the Department and ComReg. As Taoiseach, however, I want to make sure that rural areas do not lose connectivity. We are all trying to move forward with the roll-out of the national broadband plan to make sure that connectivity is brought to every part of this country, most particularly rural and regional Ireland.

County Tipperary is getting an investment of €118 million under the national broadband plan. In total, 31,000 premises in the county will be connected. Over 17,000 of those premises can already order. As recently as last Friday, we saw 3,000 homes, farms and businesses in Cahir become ready to order, in areas such as Ardfinnan, Clogheen and Burncourt. It is now also live in places such as Tipperary town, Clonmel, Cahir, Carrick-on-Suir, Cashel and Nenagh. In the county the Deputy represents, therefore, the vast majority of homes and businesses to be served are now either ready to order or under construction. Some 57% of the premises due to be served by the national broadband plan are ready to order now, and 27% are under construction. However, I take the point he makes about the interim and the disruption, and we will continue to engage on that.

2:55 pm

Photo of Thomas PringleThomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Many of us in this Chamber are extremely concerned about the reactionary, right-wing, conspiracy and misogynistic content that has become increasingly popular in recent years on social media, and which is starting to filter in and contribute to societal issues in Ireland. Such views have unfortunately always been present in society. However, due to social media it is now possible to create and spread anti-progressive views more widely and rapidly than ever before.

I bring to the Taoiseach's attention a recent study from DCU's anti-bullying centre, which has shown that algorithms used by social media platforms like YouTube and TikTok are rapidly amplifying misogynistic and male supremacist content, as well as right-wing and reactionary conspiracy content, much of which is also anti-transgender. The researchers on the study found that every single male social media account was sent masculinist, anti-feminist and other extremist content irrespective of whether they sought out this content. What is even more concerning is that they all received this content within the first 23 minutes of the experiment. This is extremely frightening and opens our eyes to the types of toxic and problematic content young boys and men in Ireland are exposed to every day. TikTok has more than 1.5 billion active monthly users, almost half of whom are under the age of 25. Recent statistics show a concerning increase in the incidence of sexual and gender-based harassment in schools and among young people in Ireland. According to Women's Aid, there has been an increase in the number of women reporting experiences of both online and offline sexual and gender-based harassment. There is no doubt but that there is a link between the growing abuse faced by women and girls and the recent rise in recent male supremacist content online. It has been shown that such content has also served as a gateway into far-right spaces. The study shows that many male accounts were also recommended reactionary, right-wing content with a focus on anti-trans and anti-woke content. A few were even shown conspiracy content, often regarding large-scale government control. This is incredibly alarming and it is clear that the recent rise of the far right in Ireland goes hand in hand with the rise of this content on TikTok and YouTube.

The DCU study noted that anti-feminist, male supremacist and far-right narratives merged together into a seamless and mutually compatible set of talking points, collectively underpinned by the logic of conspiracy. The research paper is a worrying and disturbing read, and I was truly horrified to discover the type of content and messages that young Irish men are being exposed to. It really is no wonder that we are seeing the devastating effects of this in reality. Messages like masculinity is under threat because of female empowerment and government brainwashing, that the idea of the family is threatened by LGBTQI+ rights or the suggestion that depression is not a real mental illness and it makes men weak are incredibly concerning. This is a serious problem and links in with earlier questions in the Chamber today. It is one that is only becoming more mainstream as well. How is the Taoiseach going to address it?

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Deputy Pringle for raising what he is right to say is an extraordinarily serious issue. Listening to his final words is a reminder of all of the progress we have been beginning to make as a society in destigmatising some issues and promoting equality. The risk of that being undone or damaged by dangerous online use of social media is pertinent. I met the DCU anti-bullying centre in my past capacity in government and I am grateful for the work it does. I will make it my business to familiarise myself with the report the Deputy has raised. Online safety for children, young people and all citizens is a key priority for the Government. I spoke to the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, about this as recently as today. It is an issue she takes seriously but all of Government and everybody in this House needs to take it seriously as well. That is why we passed the Online Safety and Media Regulation Act 2022 and it is why we established a new online safety and media regulator, Coimisiún na Meán. There is no question but that there is an issue with people, and children in particular, being exposed to harmful online content. I do not think we can just leave it up to the companies to do the right thing, which is why we put a legislative basis in place. Protection of children has to be a key priority. Under the new legislation, Coimisiún na Meán is putting in place a binding online safety code that is particularly focused on ensuring the safety of children and young people from harmful online content.

As Ireland's digital services co-ordinator under the new EU Digital Services Act, Coimisiún na Meán supports the European Commission in the enforcement of its landmark regulation in respect of the largest services. This was major legislation at a European level. Coimisiún na Meán is now running a spot it, flag it, stop it campaign, that relates to harmful online content, including child sex abuse material. The campaign advises people to report it to the platforms or to hotline.ie, which is funded by the EU and Internet service providers. However, as I said, we need to go further.

The public consultation on online safety codes closed at the end of January and Coimisiún na Meán is currently analysing the feedback from it. The draft code sets out the actions video-sharing platforms such as TikTok, Facebook and Instagram must take to protect the interests of users and particularly of younger users. For the first time, in the draft code there are specific obligations around age verification, which is important. It also provides for requirements to operate effective risk-mitigation measures in relation to profiling algorithms and age-inappropriate recommendations, which are some of the issues the Deputy raised. Under our legislation, harmful online content includes online content linked to 45 criminal offences, including harassment and threats, and certain harmful content that is not linked to criminal offences, such as serious cyberbullying and the promotion of eating disorders, self-harm and suicide. Failure to comply with an online safety code can lead to the imposition of a significant financial sanction of up to €20 million or up to 10% of a company's turnover and continued non-compliance can lead to criminal sanction for company directors.

3:05 pm

Photo of Thomas PringleThomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Taoiseach for his answer. The one thing we can do is to target the algorithms the companies use. Putting age profiles and barriers on accounts is grand but the algorithms are the problem and they are what we should be targeting. If we were serious about protecting young people, that is what we would be doing.

In his response, the Taoiseach mentioned the ban against harmful content and the online safety code. How many prosecutions have taken place under those at this stage? It would be interesting to see how they are actually happening, how they are performing and if they are performing. It is plain to be seen that although the companies' headquarters are all based in Ireland and they have data centres here, they use algorithms to target young people. We can act to make it happen.

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The approach we need to take is to hit them where it hurts, that is, in their pockets and on their financial balance sheet and that is what we intend to do under legislation I imagine the Deputy probably supported, as did many people across the House. It is not only about asking the companies nicely whether they wish to do things. This is far too serious an issue for our children, our country, many public policy areas and, on occasion, for democracy. Social media can bring about incredible benefits. I am known to use some of the platforms. However, there also need to be protections in place and legal obligations on these companies with sanctions if they do not comply. That is what we intend to do through Coimisiún na Meán and turning these draft safety codes to full online safety codes with full legislative effect, shortly.

In answer to the prosecutions question, the codes are not in yet. That is the truthful answer. The consultation finished at the end of January. Coimisiún na Meán is now analysing the feedback and the process of progressing it is ongoing and needs to proceed with urgency. There are, however, a number of European Commission investigations under the Digital Services Act, including a live investigation into what is called TikTok's recommender system and whether the algorithm protects children. Finally, I assure Deputy Pringle that in the draft safety codes the issue of the profiling algorithm will be addressed.