Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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84. To ask the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth further to Parliamentary Question No. 1148 of 20 March 2024, if the negotiation process between the expert negotiator and religious orders with regard to the mother and baby institutions redress scheme has been completed to date; if he has received any interim reports or updates during the process; if he plans to publish the final report; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [18992/24]

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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My question is specifically about the expert negotiator the Minister has appointed to mediate between the Government and the religious organisations. Where is that process at? It is almost a year now. I think in about 25 days' time, it will be a year. It is a quarter of a century since the Taoiseach apologised for all of the institutional abuse that occurred in the industrial schools. We have now moved on to the mother and baby homes. All institutions were abusive, as we know. A quarter of a century later, and almost a year after the Minister appointed a negotiator, we are none the wiser as to what the religious orders are going to contribute.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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I thank the Deputy. The commission of investigation into mother and baby institutions made significant findings regarding the failings of the State and religious bodies, which together ran mother and baby and county home institutions. The Government believes all relevant parties have a collective responsibility to respond to the legacy of these institutions. As the Deputy knows, we have an action plan setting out 22 actions, one of which is the institutional payment scheme.

In May 2023, the Government approved my proposal to appoint Ms Sheila Nunan to act on my behalf in leading negotiations with religious bodies that had a historical involvement with mother and baby institutions. This is with a view to securing a financial contribution towards the cost of the payment scheme and it followed on from a series of meetings that I held with the bodies. My Department officials and I are committed to supporting Ms Nunan in her work. As part of this, the Department has procured financial experts to support Ms Nunan in her negotiations. This expertise from EY is in place since 15 November of last year and is ongoing. The EY task is to provide an independent financial assessment of the resources of each organisation involved. While I cannot specify a date on which this process will conclude, I anticipate that it will conclude within the coming months. I have not received a interim report and these negotiations, while ongoing, are being treated as confidential. A full report will be provided to the Government once the negotiations are concluded.

On the institutional payment scheme itself, I am sure the Deputy will be interested to know that 1,900 completed applications have been received by the independent office so far. Some 600 of those are now at determination stage, and I understand the first determinations have been issued to applicants already.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I thank the Minister for that welcome update regarding the number of applications. However, I will repeat: it is a quarter of a century since the apology, and every step of the way, every redress scheme has been faulty, including the one the Minister is standing over, which is unfair, unjust and excludes thousands of people. I think it excludes 24,000 people. It excludes those who suffered because of their race and those who were boarded out. The Minister knows that. The figure that has been allocated is €800 million, not all of which will go to the survivors who apply because there are administrative and legal costs. That is the background.

I am not blaming the Minister on this. I am seeking to get information from him where we are using kid gloves with religious orders. I remember back in 2002, the Minister at that stage, the former Deputy Woods, gave an indemnity to all of the religious organisations for €126 million. That was the lowest ebb ever. Now we are back, and we have a negotiator negotiating. Has the Minister a date for that at this stage, after all of this time?

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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I thank the Deputy. I am aware of the context, and that is why I thought it was important to get somebody with negotiation skills backed up by experts who have financial analysis to understand the means available to the orders and congregations with which these engagements are taking place. As I said earlier, I am not in a position to give a date today. I think it is important that we allow this process to run its course and that we allow these engagements to take place.

I know the very deep interest here in the Oireachtas, and particularly among those who spent time in these institutions, in the outcome of these negotiations. At the end of this process, there will be a clear outlining of the outcome of the negotiations, irrespective of what that outcome may be.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The Minister has confirmed that there have been no interim reports. We do not know when it will be published. Can he tell us if that report will be published after it goes to the Cabinet? I cannot emphasise enough the context of all of this. Every single scheme has been faulty. I am a great admirer of the religious orders; they do great work. However, they were not particularly good with respect to the institutions, to put it at its mildest. We are treating them with kid gloves after a deal was done - well before the Minister's time - for €128 million, with an indemnity given to them. There was utter respect through each report. If the Minister remembers the mother and baby home commission, we called the evidence from the survivors contaminated, while great respect was given to the evidence from the religious orders, the social workers and all else.

8 o’clock

There has been a huge disrespect and an imbalance of power. Has the analysis of the assets been completed? Was it EY or another group that was appointed to carry out that cost analysis? Has it been completed and have the religious orders co-operated with that process? If it has not been completed, when will it be completed? Will the extra money go towards helping those who were excluded back into the scheme?

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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EY has been involved in this process since November last year. Its task is to provide an independent financial assessment of the resources available to each of the organisations involved. I am not aware as to whether its analysis has been completed.

Whether the report from the negotiator will be published at the end of the process will be a matter for the Government to make a determination on. A report will have to be brought to the Government. My recommendation would be to publish the report. It is important as part of the transparency of the process but it is also important that we have a final report. I do not think interim reports are useful in these particular situations, especially when a negotiation is ongoing. While I hear the Deputy's frustration and that of others, I do not believe in giving a running commentary in a negotiating process. I does not help its long-term goal.