John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I move:

That Dáil Éireann shall take note of the Report of the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure, and Reform, and Taoiseach entitled "Report on Politically Exposed Persons", copies of which were laid before Dáil Éireann on 13th December, 2023.

I thank members of the committee and all those who appeared before us, including departmental officials, to provide an insight into the process used to bring about changes in the Criminal Justice (Money Laundering and Terrorist Financing) Act 2010, which has implications for Members of this House, members of county councils, civil servants and the families of all those involved.

What concerns me most is the process used by the European Union to arrive at the decision to tell member states to include this in legislation. Very few public representatives are involved in that process, which shocks me. The Minister might attend a session once a year or once every two years. The minutes are available, but they are not public sessions. These decisions are reached. Where did all this emanate from? There is a diagram in the report which states that they originated in 1989 and were pushed by the G7. Ireland, as a member of the European Union, is bound by the recommendations and, as I said, the recommendations are arrived at through plenary sessions and the odd ministerial session - I presume that is just to give it a nod - and it goes to the European Union, the European Commission, the EU Council working party and then the European Parliament. By that stage, however, all the workings and wording required to be transposed into Irish law, in our case, is agreed to.

Let us move on to the implementation of it. Members of this House are all politically exposed persons. The implications of that are that we have problems with our banking. Our family members have to disclose that they are associated with a politically exposed person, as if we were all criminals. Councillors go through the same rigorous process. Banks do not really want politically exposed persons as customers because it entails all sorts of monitoring of the accounts, notifications of transactions that might be deemed unusual and it causes further problems in relation to the element of politically exposed persons when the Central Bank audits a bank. If you have a credit union account, the transfer of your salary might be questioned. Transfers within the credit union from current accounts to whatever other accounts people have are questioned. We are notified. The process is delayed. When we make an application for a loan we have to go through a further ten or 12 pages in order to be considered. Many Members have told me that they were not refused loans but that the process was so difficult that they did not bother with it. That is wrong. Some Members' secretaries in the House have been told that they are politically exposed persons and they have the same problems in dealing with their banks or credit unions. The county councillors who are currently meeting in the Seanad to talk about local government are in the same situation.

No one involved in the House or in councils is objecting to a process that will make it all transparent and clear and that will keep us all honest, but this has gone too far. When the sons and daughters of Members of the Houses or of county councillors go to a bank and ask for a loan, they are treated in exactly the same way. Someone has to call a halt to the mad bureaucracy involved here. Otherwise, people will not be interested in politics, not because they have something to hide, but because the regulation is such that it prevents members of councils, the Dáil or Seanad or their family members from functioning properly as they go about their normal business.

My son applied for a loan. It was not refused. However, at the point of approval, it was said to him that he was John McGuinness's son. He had to fill out further pages of an application. That is wrong. I do not know how a mechanic could interfere with me, as a public representative, or the process of decision-making. The interesting thing in the minutes of some of these meetings is that certain civil servants, at a meeting of civil servants as part of the process I just outlined, were taken off the list. If my family members and those of the Minister of State, who have nothing to do with politics, are deemed to be politically exposed persons, everyone working in the public and civil service must be politically exposed persons, by definition. That is wrong.