Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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61. To ask the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment if he is planning to pause the planned increase in statutory sick pay days; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [17044/24]

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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In June 2021, the Minister's Department issued a press release, the strapline of which was: "All workers to get 10 days paid sick leave phased in between now and 2025". Now it is being reported that the Minister is going to betray this promise because of pressure from business owners. I have a very simple question. Will he will confirm or deny that he is going to pause the planned and previously promised increase in statutory sick days?

Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for the question. The Sick Leave Act 2022 introduced employer-paid, medically certified statutory sick leave for the first time in Ireland. Commencing on 1 January 2023, the initial statutory entitlement was up to three days’ sick leave, which increased to five days on 1 January 2024. This could potentially increase to seven days in 2025 and ten days in 2026.

Introducing statutory sick leave forms part of the Government's efforts to develop a more inclusive and more competitive economy and a fairer society. It is about making work pay and was designed in consultation with the Minister for Social Protection and the social partners - employer groups and trade unions – to roll out on a phased basis.

Furthermore, section 10 of the Act provides a mechanism by which individual businesses that are struggling financially can avail of protection from the Labour Court from having to pay sick leave for a defined period of time. However, I acknowledge the concerns raised about the cumulative cost of regulation to business, especially in the short term. That is why a range of measures is being brought forward to assist businesses in adjusting to these increased costs as well as more generally to improve competitiveness of firms.

It is important also to note that statutory sick leave has been recognised by employer groups as beneficial to society and the economy. Statutory sick leave is demand led, offers a floor level of protection and does not interfere with existing, more favourable sick leave schemes. It is also a valuable public health measure, reducing the likelihood of infectious disease transmission in the workplace. Officials in my Department are carefully assessing the impact of statutory sick leave on businesses by sector and company size to inform the decision in respect of the timing and scale of the next phase in the roll-out of the scheme, including the number of days. This information could also inform the design of targeted supports, where necessary.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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That was as clear as mud; we do not have an answer. Is the Minister going to deliver the sick days that are promised to workers, which the Minister said are not just an issue of workers' rights but also public health? This is about forcing mostly low-paid workers to go to work when they are sick. Is the Minister going to deliver on that or pause it in the interests of those business lobbyists who are calling for this? During the debate on the Bill, I pointed out that a wide-open loophole had been stitched into the Bill precisely to allow the Government, under pressure from business lobbyists, not to proceed with this measure. At the time, we were told there was no need for our amendment, the Government would go ahead with this and workers would get their sick days. However, the Minister is not giving a clear answer today as to whether the sick pay days will be increased in line with what was promised. Even the promised increase to ten days would still leave us behind many other European countries. We should not believe the stories of big businesses putting on the poor mouth when profits are actually going up. They are just looking for an excuse not to give more rights to workers in terms of sick pay.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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I join with Teachta Murphy in pressing the Minister on this. The Minister can clearly come out and debunk what is being put out the media. The suggestion in the media is that he will put a pause on the provisions. That is something he either is or is not actively considering now. He can very easily, quickly and simply either confirm or deny what we have read in the media. It is unfair to those workers who depend on this measure and believe it is coming. I shared Teachta Murphy's concerns about the Bill and put forward a number of amendments, but the Government pressed ahead with it. The Minister said he was going to deliver this, and now we read that there is a potential for it to be paused. I press the Minister to either confirm or deny that. I encourage him to read the ICTU report on the cost of doing business. It debunks an awful lot of the myths that have been put into the public domain by very well-off employers.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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That was an excellent report from the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and I advise the Minister to read it. This is not the first time this morning that questions were posed on Fine Gael's commitment to modest adjustments to Ireland's sick leave regime. I note the Minister did not give me a straight or direct answer earlier. It would provide some reassurance to workers across the country if he were to restate this morning the commitment that has already been made to introduce broader sick leave arrangements. They are modest proposals. They barely bring us into line with countries against which we like to compare ourselves, as I said earlier. These are not radical reforms. They are modest reforms, the kind any decent society should be proud to introduce. The Minister has the opportunity here to restate an already pledged commitment. That is all he would be doing. He should not break his promise to Irish workers.

Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I was very clear in my answer to Deputy Nash on a living wage. I said we were going to wait for the report from the Low Pay Commission. That is the mechanism and structure that is in place, and I am not going to pre-empt that report.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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This question is on sick pay.

Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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On sick pay, we are very committed as a Government to improve the rights of employees. We are in the month of April. Section 6 of the Act clearly sets out that the decision has to be made in quarter 4 and a ministerial direction has to be given on 1 January next year.

I make all my policy decisions based on evidence. Through the year, I will look at how the economy is progressing and how the reforms that have been made continue to be progressed.

I am proud to be part of a Government that introduced parental leave and sick pay, increased the minimum wage by 46% since 2015, put forward on Second Stage last night a Bill on pension auto-enrolment to protect the future of workers and protect the most low paid in our economy. We are on a strong trajectory now. We brought in sick pay for up to five days. We will consult with all groups. That is what my Department is about. We protect employees, businesses and consumers. We have to work to ensure that all in the economy keep going on a sustainable footing. I will do that, but no one is going to force me into decision in the month of April when, through section 6 of the Act, I have to make it in quarter 4. I will monitor the economy and my determinations will be based on evidence.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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It is scandalous that the Fine Gael Árd-Fheis was used to fly a kite in the interests of the employers to say the Government is considering delaying sick pay.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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Economy first, people second.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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That is what happened at the Fine Gael Árd-Fheis. That is what was reported. Now, in the Dáil, the Minister responsible has refused to clarify or give some reassurance to workers on whether the number of sick pay days are going to increase or not. That is scandalous. Workers have a right to know. The Minister cannot just fly a kite in the interests of the employers by telling them not to worry, we are going back to the basics and the blueshirt tradition of supporting big business against workers, and then refuse to clarify for workers whether they are going to be able to get the sick pay they are entitled to.

Let us look at the agenda of these people. Neil McDonnell, the chief executive of the Irish Small and Medium Enterprises Association, ISME, said that five days' sick pay is perfectly adequate. For whom is it perfectly adequate? It is not adequate for a seriously ill worker, nor even for an average worker. Anyone who gets Covid-19 is required by the HSE to self-isolate for a minimum of five days. That means the person's annual sick leave is gone in one go. The next time that person is ill, he or she will be forced to go to work despite being sick. Workers need reassurance. The Minister should be able to answer the question clearly today and say he intends to go ahead with sick leave increases. However, it appears he is not willing to do that.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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I understand that Fine Gael Members like to come in here and throw bouquets at themselves, and fair play to them for doing it. It is not lost on me, however, that during its time in Government, Fine Gael cut the sick leave entitlement for serving civil and public servants in half, without a backward glance or second thought. It was aided and abetted by its then partners in Government. That was a retrograde step.

During the pandemic, plenty of us, not just Fine Gael and its Government colleagues, spoke about sick leave being an important instrument of public health. Yet, the Minister has said he is not committed to delivering on the commitment given by his Government. He has been asked a simple question. He is either on the track to providing ten days' paid sick leave, or not. He can share that information with us now because the speculation in the media is that he is going to pause the measure. That would be absolutely disgraceful. I want to hear that he is not going to do that. It was a commitment given by his Government. It would be very simple for him to say today whether he will or will not support and honour that commitment.

Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I will not take any lectures from the Opposition about protecting workers. I am proud to have been a member of a Government that put €12 billion into the economy through the pandemic unemployment payment to ensure that people had certainty of income right through very difficult times in our economy. That ensured the economy was in good shape to deliver those commitments, protect those workers and ensure that business could take off like a rocket to employ people post the pandemic. That is what sustainable finances are.

On two occasions this morning, I have been asked to pre-empt decisions to be taken in quarter 1 of next year. I am not prepared to do that. The trajectory for sick pay is clearly set out in the legislation. It is on statute. However, section 6 of the Act gives us an opportunity to review how the economy is doing. When that is in legislation I am absolutely obliged to do that. I will work with employers. As I said in regard to lower paid workers, judge us on the evidence. Look at the minimum wage, which increased by 46%, sick pay, which we brought in, and pensions auto-enrolment. Last night, many Deputies voted against the future pension rights of workers in this economy. We are a Government that protects workers. We have shown and done that. We brought in remote working as well, which has changed the public service in terms of productivity, certainty and how it can operate. I will not take lectures from the Opposition in regard to protecting employees' rights in this economy.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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Is the Minister of State going to publish the guidance?