Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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5. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence the reasons his Department facilitated a meeting between an organisation (details supplied) and the EDA’s CEO in September 2023; if he will publish the names of the persons who participated in the meeting between those two organisations; the topics that were discussed; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [13292/24]

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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It was a busy day over at Tweedle Dee's yesterday. I would like to ask the reasons the Minister's Department facilitated a meeting between the Irish Defence and Security Association and the European Defence Agency's CEO in September 2023; if he will publish of the names of the people who participated in the meeting; the topics that were discussed; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy for raising the question. The Irish Defence and Security Association, IDSA, was established in 2021 with a mission "to ensure Ireland develops appropriate, leading-edge and trusted defence and security capabilities in the land, sea, air, space and cyber domains, in order to protect our society, create jobs, drive research and enhance Ireland’s economic growth". That is a quotation from its mission statement. National defence industry associations are the norm in many EU member states, providing support to industry operating in defence markets in a number of ways, by creating networks, disseminating information and assisting contractors to find suitable subcontractors. They are particularly important for small and medium-sized enterprises.

My Department was supportive of the establishment of the IDSA and welcomed its role in providing a conduit for information to defence and dual-use industry and research institutions and academia. Prior to the visit by the chief executive of the European Defence Agency, Mr. Jirí Šedivý, to Ireland in September 2023, the Department was asked by the EDA to facilitate a meeting between the EDA chief executive and Irish industry. The Department passed this request to the IDSA. The meeting was chaired by Mr. Šedivý. The chair of the IDSA, Mr. Pat O'Connor was in attendance with a number of representatives from the association. In his role as chief executive, Mr. Šedivý has regular dialogue with the participating member states of the EDA, which includes national defence industry associations, to discuss opportunities within the agency for industry and academia.

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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We are talking about the arms industry here and an emerging Irish arms industry. It seems to me that this is quite a shadowy organisation. It is unlike any other representative organisation that I know of. They do not say who their affiliates are. We are told there are 15 Irish-based SMEs, two research organisations and two multinational corporations. We are told that Mr. Pat O'Connor is the chair, Ms Caitríona Heinl is head of policy and Ben Tonra, the UCD professor, is involved as well. We are not told who all the other affiliates, organisations and individuals are or who attended this meeting, other than the one person the Tánaiste mentioned. Why is there so much secrecy around this group?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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This group is not under the aegis of my Department. The Department believes and I believe that there are similar groups all over member states. There is an arms industry out there. We purchase weaponry. To engage in peacekeeping, it is necessary to procure weaponry. I met with the EDA chief executive. Our participation in it is fairly low-key. The role of the EDA in the broader context of the EU is fairly low-key as well. The level of operation very much depends on the degree to which states want to co-operate with it or engage its services. The Deputy made a declaration that this is the arms industry. We do have defence forces.

We have procurement challenges. We are going to enter into the most significant era of defence procurement in the Defence Forces since the foundation of the State over the next number of years. We need expertise around procurement. Obviously, public procurement has to abide by all of the rules in respect of the European Union's rules around procurement. I do not hold any remit for this organisation.

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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The Tánaiste mentioned that similar organisations exist in other European Union countries. I do not doubt him for a moment on that. The arms industry is shadowy. Are other EU countries as shadowy as what we have here? I imagine that in many other European countries the affiliates of a defence association are on the public record, but that is not the case here.

The Tánaiste said this does not come under the aegis of his Department, and that is true. However, it is also true that the Department set up a meeting for this association with the CEO of the European defence association. If it is to set up meetings of that kind, the least the Department can do is come clean and be public about who attended the meetings and who the affiliates of the defence association he has spoken about are. The Tánaiste is correct to say that the arms industry is on the rise in Europe. I do not think we should be part of that, but I would like to get the answers to my questions.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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How does the Deputy think we should procure weapons? Does he think we should procure weapons at all? It seems to me that his position is that we should not and that we should have no arms industry at all. That is what he has suggested.

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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Who is involved?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am asking a straight question. Does the Deputy think we should have an arms industry?

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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I asked the Tánaiste a straight question. I am asking the questions here. Who is involved?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I do not have responsibility for this organisation, but I will seek further information for the Deputy.

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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The Tánaiste set up meetings for it.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy already had the information. He named names. He asked a question to which he already had the answer.

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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No. It was a minority of the names involved. Who are the other names?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy made declaratory statements about an arms industry. It seems to me that his position is that we should not procure any weapons and the arms industry is a shadowy operation. I do not know how we are going to defend ourselves-----

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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Who is involved?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----if we do not buy any guns, ships, airplanes or anything like that.

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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Stop bluffing. Who is involved?