Dáil debates
Thursday, 7 March 2024
Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate
Fire Service
4:15 pm
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I am dealing with the case of John Molloy, retained fire station officer in Dunleer fire station. The station has a crew of five. That is the minimum for a crew. I do not necessarily have to go into the great and necessary work that is carried out by the fire brigade. We know that at times they have to deal with dreadful circumstances as a result of fires, road traffic accidents and all the rest of it.
There are two things here. There is the particular situation of Mr. Molloy but, beyond that, we need to make sure there is at least a minimum level crew. We need to look at increasing those numbers and we know we have had ongoing issues in respect of retained firefighters. I was at an event in the Market House in Dunleer where Mr. Molloy was one of the spokespersons at that stage and he even engaged with the Taoiseach on that day about the wider issues around pay and conditions for those who work in the fire service.
The problem might have a solution. A decision made at Cabinet this week might provide a solution. On 24 May, Mr. Molloy will turn 60. We heard the plans for those in uniform, including members of the fire service. The age of mandatory retirement for the likes of Mr. Molloy will be moving from 60 to 62. I am putting two things to the Minister of State. What is the timeline within which this will occur? Are there any particular obstacles that may occur? If this does not happen before 24 May, could there be a possible workaround or whatever, seeing this change will be coming into play. Could there be engagement from that point of view with Louth County Council and whoever else is necessary?
I have brought up this matter with the Taoiseach and Tánaiste. I had a conversation with the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien. At that point, he did not have the timeline. He said there may be an issue relating to the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery, and Reform on the timeline. That frightens me. This is one of those cases where I would much rather have the Minister of State's answer before these four minutes were available to me. It cannot be beyond us to deliver upon this. We all know the multiple issues that have been dealt with in respect of retained firefighters. They have had issues around retention. We have seen particular issues that were taken to a head by their own actions this year. We want all of that delivered. I am asking for two things. I am asking that we see right by John Molloy. He says there is no fire station officer available to replace him. He is, as I say, making up that minimum crew of five firefighters. That is a particular issue and there will be another issue if we cannot provide a fire service because that crew number falls below five.
I hope I am right when I say that Mr. Molloy has 18 years' service as a retained firefighter and spent 22 years in the Defence Forces before that. He knows absolutely all there is to know about public service. I know a few members of his family who would also have served within Defence Forces. We are talking about a really sound man and someone who, along with his wider family, has put such effort into public service. We need to see right by him but we also need to see right by the people of Dunleer and Louth and ensure they have a fire service that is fit for purpose.
Malcolm Noonan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. The provision of a fire service in its functional area, including the establishment and maintenance of a fire brigade, the assessment of fire cover needs and the provision of fire station premises is a statutory function of individual fire authorities under the Fire Services Act 1981. My Department supports fire authorities through setting general policy, issuing guidance on operational and other matters, providing a central training programme and providing a capital funding programme for priority infrastructure projects to support local authority expenditure.
The retirement age for retained firefighters has been the subject of many discussions between management and unions over time with many challenges faced in achieving an agreed position. In 2002, trade unions sought an increase in the retirement age and the associated ex gratia payment. This request was subject to a Labour Court referral and the Labour Court recommended the need to maintain a blanket retirement age of 55 but stated that from a health and safety perspective, this should be reviewed and objectively assessed by parties with the assistance of suitable experts. This allowed for the establishment of an expert group to carry out a review of the retirement age for all grades of the retained fire service. The expert group report published in 2003 considered a range of advice from different sources, including medical advice, and provided that retained firefighters would have the option of either retiring at the age of 55 or, subject to an annual compulsory medical assessment, an annual extension to a maximum age of 58 years.
Subsequently, in early 2020, the Workplace Relations Commission recommended that the existing provisions for the retirement age of retained firefighters should be amended to change the existing provision for an annual extension from 58 years to 60 years. Accordingly, my Department issued a circular to all local authorities in December 2020 directing that, on an interim basis, pending consideration of legislative amendments, retained firefighters could now continue working until they reach the age of 60, subject to annual compulsory assessment under the occupational health scheme.
The Government has recently approved an increase in the mandatory retirement age for members of the uniformed services to 62 and agreed that the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery, and Reform will bring forward legislative proposals in that regard. It is the intention of the Minister, Deputy O’Brien, to engage with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery, and Reform to ensure the mandatory retirement age for firefighters is consistent with other uniformed services.
I would stress that it is essential that the retirement age reflects the requirement that firefighters should be capable of satisfactorily meeting the physically demanding nature of the role. In this regard, pursuant to the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act 1989, every fire authority, as an employer, has a statutory duty to avoid placing employees at unnecessary risk.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I will respond to what the Minister of State said in reverse. He said "it is essential that the retirement age reflects the requirement that firefighters should be capable of satisfactorily meeting the physically demanding nature of the role".
5 o’clock
Mr. Molloy made the point to me that he has no issue with regard to that or any of the fitness tests, so that is out of the equation.
Unfortunately, some of what is in the answer is I thought it would be. The reply states that it is the Minister's intention to engage with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform to ensure that the mandatory retirement age for firefighters is consistent with other uniformed services. We just need this to happen as soon as possible. Would it be possible to issue a circular, as happened previously, stating that this is coming in order that we can find some sort of workaround that could at least ensure that Dunleer maintains a crew of five and a fire station officer with all the institutional memory and knowledge he has? There is nobody to replace Mr. Molloy and nothing is in place to ensure that he does not fall between two stools and is forced to retire when two, three or four months later, that issue would be dealt with. It cannot be beyond the capacity of Government and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage to deliver a solution. There are two scenarios at play. We are talking about being able to ensure that we deliver a fit-for-purpose fire service for Dunleer and for County Louth in general. I have seen it in action too many times. Everybody realises the necessary work the service does. Beyond that, we have to treat Mr. Molloy fairly. We cannot have him falling between two stools, so we need to make sure that there is some interim action. If we get a timeline - even if the Minister of State could give an indication of the timeline for the legislation and delivering fully - that would be welcome.
4:25 pm
Malcolm Noonan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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I reiterate the steps my Department has already taken to incrementally increase the retirement age for retained firefighters from 55 to 60. I can also reconfirm that the Minister intends to engage with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform to ensure that the mandatory retirement age for retained firefighters is consistent with that of other uniformed services, particularly noting that Government recently agreed an increase to age 62 in that regard and for legislation to be drafted to provide for this.
I appreciate that Mr. Molloy is stuck in limbo because the legislation has not been not drafted. It is being drafted. Retained firefighters provide an invaluable service that is essential to their own communities and the public and there is no doubt that primarily retained fire services save lives, prevent damage to residential and commercial property, protect critical infrastructure and safeguard the environment. Our firefighters constitute an invaluable front-line service staffed by very dedicated and selfless people serving communities around the clock.
I will ask the Department to come back to the Deputy. I cannot state what the timeline for the legislation is. I am not sure about interim actions or a circular in that regard. As the Deputy can appreciate, it is a decision that has just recently been made by Government. I wish Mr. Molloy all the best. I know he faces uncertainty. As the Deputy mentioned, Mr. Molloy has 22 years of service in the Defence Forces, as well as his service as a retained firefighter. I will ask the Department to revert to the Deputy about the matter.
Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate that. If a final solution was put in place, we would all be better off.