Catherine Martin (Dublin Rathdown, Green Party)
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Fáiltím roimh an deis seo labhairt os comhair na Dála inniu. I welcome the opportunity to address Dáil Éireann today. This House first heard statements on the issues arising in RTÉ on 4 July last year. I said then that although I did not underestimate the difficult path that lay ahead for RTÉ, I was confident that trust could be restored if all involved demonstrated a commitment to the public good that ultimately lies at the heart of public service broadcasting. In that regard, I acknowledge at the outset that I am deeply appreciative of the dedication to public service shown by Siún Ní Raghallaigh as chair of the board of RTÉ and, in particular, the work she has done to address the crisis in RTÉ these past eight months.

Yesterday evening, I explained, in depth and for over three hours, the sequence of events that led to the resignation of the former chair to the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media. I will seek to respond to the questions or points on the matter that Deputies make during the course of this debate. However, in the time I have in my opening statement, I intend to address the steps I have taken and intend to take to restore trust in RTÉ and to secure a sustainable future for the organisation and wider media sector.

Ever since I took up the office of Minister for Media in June 2020, I have been determined to put in place a robust legislative and administrative framework to ensure that our media sector is sustainable, resilient, pluralistic and, vitally and most importantly, capable of delivering reliable and trustworthy public service content for all of our people. On the legislative front, I introduced and ensured the enactment of the Online Safety and Media Regulation Act 2022. Throughout the legislative process, I worked with Deputies and Senators from every party and none to improve the Act. Where I believed that Members of both Houses made valuable contributions, I brought forward amendments to give effect to their suggestions. The Act established a new regulatory framework for online safety, modernised the regulatory framework for the regulation of broadcasting and video-on-demand services and, crucially, established a new media regulator, Coimisiún na Meán, to oversee the expanded regulatory framework, promote the development of the wider media sector and regulate our public service broadcasters.

In September 2020, the Future of Media Commission was established to examine how our broadcast, print and online media can deliver public service aims over the next decade and beyond, with a particular remit to make recommendations on the role, financing and structure of RTÉ. The report of the commission was published in July 2022, and thereafter I brought forward a comprehensive implementation plan published by my Department in January 2023. Taken together, the recommendations of the Future of Media Commission and the Online Safety and Media Regulation Act 2022 provide the basis for a new framework to underpin the development of our media sector in the coming decades. Our statutory public service media bodies, namely RTÉ and TG4, sit at the centre of this framework.

We require independent and accountable public service media that are capable of fulfilling their statutory duty to provide broadcasting and other media services that have the fundamental character of a public service. That statutory duty has ensured that our public service media have long been an important source of trustworthy news, a role that has become more important given the current challenges of disinformation and misinformation. Our public service media have provided a space for our artists, writers and creative workers to share our distinctly Irish culture with Irish audiences. They also play a vital role in sustaining an Irish independent production sector capable of promoting Irish creative talent and developing films, television, radio and animation productions.

Given its vital importance to our society and the functioning of our democracy, I have been committed to putting in place a funding model for our public service media that provides stability and sustainability of funding while safeguarding editorial independence and commanding public support. As I set out to the House two weeks ago, the Government is committed to reform of the funding system during its term of office. I am more determined than ever to see this happen.

I have also been clear that public trust in RTÉ needs to be restored before a public funding model can be formally considered by Government. Trust is critical to public service media, not only trust between a broadcaster and its audience but also between an important national institution and the public and their representatives in the Oireachtas and Government. I do not think the public, Oireachtas or Government could agree to a new funding model for RTÉ without the assurance that there is a robust and appropriate governance framework in RTÉ and that issues relating to the engagement of presenters and contractors and the terms and conditions of RTÉ employees are being addressed. That is why, at the outset of the crisis in early July, I established two expert advisory committees to undertake reviews of governance and culture and of contractor fees, HR and other matters and appointed Mazars as forensic accountant to examine the RTÉ barter account and any other off-balance sheet accounts. The expert advisory committees are finalising their reports and I expect to receive them in March. Given their terms of reference, I expect they will contain a comprehensive list of recommendations on the steps that need to be taken to restore trust in RTÉ. The two reviews will provide a basis for further actions by RTÉ and, where appropriate, by my Department. As I have said, I see the merit of returning RTÉ to the authority of the Comptroller and Auditor General, but await the recommendations of the expert advisory committees with particular interest in that regard.

RTÉ has already commenced work on its reforms and has published a strategic vision for the period 2024 to 2028. I have stated that I welcome these reforms. However, further reform and transformation will be required. The rebuilding of trust will also be dependent on RTÉ demonstrating continued progress in the implementation of its own reforms and a commitment to implementing the recommendations of the expert advisory committees.

Following the publication of the reports of the expert advisory committees and an associated commitment to implementation of their recommendations by RTÉ, the Government will move to consider the funding model that best provides certainty, stability and sustainability, not only to RTÉ but to all those in the media sector who provide public service content to the public. Over the lifetime of this Government, I am determined that we will have put in place all of the necessary components to ensure a sustainable future for public service media in Ireland.

I would also like to address the circumstances that led to the resignation of the former chairperson of the RTÉ board. As has already been well documented, following the publication of a report into voluntary exit schemes at RTÉ, the director general provided some details at the media committee on the agreed exits of other senior executives in RTÉ over the past number of months. The director general was not in a position to provide detailed information on these agreements due to legal constraints. Having consistently called for maximum transparency on such matters, I asked the director general to seek updated legal advice which could pave the way for the disclosure of key details and provide maximum transparency.

In order to seek an update on this matter, I met the former chair and director general last week. Over the course of meetings on Monday and Wednesday, I also raised media reports indicating that the former chair had approved the severance package for the former director of strategy in RTÉ. I also asked for clarification with regard to the role of the board, if any, in approving the severance package for another member of staff, the former chief financial officer in RTÉ. The former chair advised that she had been aware that, in the case of Rory Coveney, this was an agreed exit and she acknowledged that I should have been apprised of this at the time. With regard to Richard Collins, the former chair advised that there was no board involvement, although she was fully aware of the matter. To address the earlier media reports, I felt it was important to clarify this point when speaking to the media on Monday, and I did so on the basis of the information provided to me by the former chair.

The director general and former chair wrote to me on Wednesday last week with the updated legal advice that RTÉ had received. That letter referred to board involvement "where relevant" in these processes, and I felt it necessary to seek further clarification on this matter. I was again advised that there was no board involvement in either the Rory Coveney or Richard Collins case, although the former chair pointed out in last Wednesday’s meeting that there would be in future in such cases or agreements.

Over the course of Thursday last, there was a series of communications with the former chair. Initially, this was to advise that what she had told me on Monday and Wednesday was incorrect, that she had made an error and that the remuneration committee of the RTÉ board, which she chaired, had met to approve the Richard Collins exit package last October. It was conveyed to Ms Ní Raghallaigh that I intended to write to her to express my disappointment at this. Over the course of the day, the former chair conveyed that such a letter and the suggestion of a meeting would not be welcomed and that, ultimately, she would have to consider her position if the issue was pressed. I felt it was still important enough to write to the former chair proposing a meeting in the expectation that the former chair would reflect on the matter and agree to meet.

As I have stated, I had previously agreed to appear on "Prime Time" last Thursday to discuss not only the future funding of RTÉ but also to address the question of seeking the maximum possible transparency with regard to severance agreements and payments. It became apparent shortly before my appearance that a number of media queries were being raised in relation to these matters. I believed that in the interests of transparency it was necessary for me to address this matter. However, I was still hopeful that former chair would accept my invitation to meet her.

I must emphasise the importance of a Minister maintaining complete confidence in the chair of a State body. This confidence was eroded, but I believed a meeting would help to restore it and this was my only motivation in seeking to fully address the events of last week.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Go raibh maith agat.

Catherine Martin (Dublin Rathdown, Green Party)
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Regrettably, the chair did submit her resignation.

I again put on the record of this House my genuine appreciation for the significant contribution Ms Ní Raghallaigh made to the process to reform RTÉ over a relatively short space of time. We must now, however, redouble our efforts on the rebuilding of trust in RTÉ.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Since the Minister's bizarre decision on Thursday to appear on "Prime Time", her actions and the resignation of Siún Ní Raghallaigh have dominated the news cycle. It is clear the Minister should not have done that interview. Yesterday, at the media committee, she admitted she had been aware the then chair was threatening to resign, yet she went ahead with that interview. In fact, the then chair had indicated she would resign if a letter were sent, and the Minister sent that letter on Thursday evening. Her advisers then tipped off "Prime Time" that there was breaking news and that she would be willing to answer questions about it. I am not sure whether this shows a shocking lack of judgment on the Minister’s part or whether this was a set-up to remove Siún Ní Raghallaigh. I just struggle to accept the Minister could be that incompetent.

I also struggle to believe the Minister did not expect the interviewer to ask whether she had confidence in the then chair. It was extremely disrespectful to the chair and amounted to an on-air dismissal. Even if she had felt the information she was receiving from the then chair was incomplete or inaccurate, her defence that it would have been wrong to cancel the interview just does not hold water with anybody. That is no way to conduct business, especially given the sensitivities of the situation at RTÉ and the need to steady the ship. Instead of steadying the ship, the Minister threw in a grenade.

Since taking office, the Minister has adopted a hands-off approach to her brief. Rather than spending time discussing this mess, I would much rather she engaged with her brief and answered questions about important issues such as bogus self-employment at RTÉ, or finally made a decision on the licence fee. She cannot be an effective Minister by ignoring parts of her brief that are tricky. I have lost count of the number of times and ways I have tried to raise with the Minister bogus self-employment at RTÉ, and each time the question is ruled out of order. What will it take for her to accept responsibility for this? An enormous bill is coming down the line and we need to plan for how to pay for it.

It does not stop there, of course. When is the Minister going to make a decision on the licence fee? The Future of Media Commission cost the taxpayer more than €500,000. It carried out thorough research and made a recommendation to fund public service media through the Exchequer. The Minister stated she agreed with the commission's recommendation. Two years later, therefore, why has she not implemented it? Is it still sitting on the shelf gathering dust? Is the Minister being overruled by Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael or has she just not made a decision? Which is it? When will she make a decision as to whether to scrap the licence fee, by which I mean will it be in weeks or months, rather than kicking it further down the road? Speaking of not making decisions, when does she intend to make a decision on bringing RTÉ under the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General and the public accounts committee? Will she make a commitment, if that is her belief, that she will support the Sinn Féin Bill on this, which passed First Stage yesterday?

Deputy Martin is the Minister, at the end of the day. She needs to start making those decisions, given the crisis we have come through, and if she is being blocked in making those decisions by her Government colleagues, she needs to be upfront and tell us that. Both the public and the staff at RTÉ deserve a hell of a lot better than what they are getting from her at the moment.

Thomas Gould (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I will begin by outlining a number of questions the Minister needs to answer today, and I request that she do that. She indicated last night that her party’s chief of staff had informed the chiefs of staff of the other Government party leaders of the information that had come to light last Thursday. At that time, did the chief of staff of the Minister’s party know her confidence in the then chairperson had been eroded to the point where she could not express confidence in her, and if so, was this conveyed to the three Government party leaders? The Minister, Deputy Donohoe, has indicated they did not know, but their chiefs of staff did know, as the Minister, Deputy Martin, confirmed to me last night.

We may not agree on Government or party politics, but the three leaders have 74 years of experience in politics between them. Did the Minister not consider it worthwhile to talk to them and seek advice? When her advisers informed "Prime Time" of the information that was to be leaked, had the Minister discussed with her advisers her inability to express confidence in the chair before she went live on television? Had she told anyone, prior to entering the "Prime Time" studio, that she did not believe she could express confidence in the chair if asked, or was Miriam O'Callaghan the first person to ask the Minister whether she had confidence and was this done live on national television for the first time? Did the Minister make a split decision live on air without seeking advice from anyone else? It is unbelievable. I watched the interview live last Thursday night. It amounted to a sacking live on air. That a Minister would put such little thought into a sacking live on air is unbelievable. She should have put more thought into it, so her judgment has to be called into question.

The Minister stated that two reports are coming in March and that she will make a decision, but she has been in office for four years and she has the Report of the Future of Media Commission on her desk. When will we see the abolition of the TV licence and a proper, sustainable funding model for RTÉ, TG4 and other public service broadcasters? We need answers now.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The public are sick and tired of debacle after debacle concerning RTÉ, and the Minister's hands-off approach is simply not working. I have listened back to interviews she has done, and time and again she has claimed such and such would be inappropriate for the Minister and said the Minister cannot go there. She is leaving it to members of the committees to ask questions she should be asking in the first instance, questions that do not come to her, and she says she knows nothing about that and that she does not want to stray into those matters. It is not acceptable.

The Minister's decision, after a hands-off approach, has plunged RTÉ into further crisis over what happened last Thursday. We now know from the questioning by the committee last night that she was aware Siún Ní Raghallaigh was threatening resignation in the event the Minister sent a letter criticising her. She had told the Minister's official that would amount to a vote of confidence from the Minister and that she would have to consider her position. The Minister sent the letter anyway. Not only did she ensure the chair would consider her position, as she had threatened to do, by not lifting up the phone, having a conversation with her or saying, "Siún, we're in the middle of a crisis here with RTÉ. Let’s straighten it out." She sent the letter anyway, knowing there was a threat of resignation. Worse than that, she drove out to RTÉ, which did not know about this story, and instructed her adviser to tell RTÉ about this story and to indicate she was willing to take questions. She went on air at the national broadcaster in what was tantamount to a public humiliation of a public servant who had served this State for many years, somebody who, as has been said, was in a part-time role receiving a fee that is paid to board members. It is reported she had actually waived her fee. The Minister went on air at the national broadcaster and made her statement, knowing the chair was threatening to resign anyway, and what she did, in effect, was ensure she would be pushed over the cliff. There is no other way.

Let us look at the Minister's defence that she did not know that question would come up. Nobody in this House would be so naive as to believe or to swallow that guff that a Minister was going on air to say somebody had misled them on two occasions without being asked whether they had confidence in that person. Nobody believes that. The second defence the Minister has is that she wanted to be honest and transparent, but she says that if had not been for the leaks and media queries earlier in the day, she would not have told “Prime Time” anything, so that does not stack up. Why did the Minister decide to end the tenure of somebody who was trying to reform RTÉ and instil corporate governance? She said it was because the chair had misled her in regard to the oversight of the remuneration board on two occasions - I accept that is not acceptable - but her Department had been told on at least three occasions.

Siún Ní Raghallaigh told the Department on 10 October. The remuneration committee met on 9 October and made a provisional decision and the minutes show that Ms Ní Raghallaigh was going to talk to the Department and the committee would confirm the decision the following morning, on 10 October, which is what happened. The PAC told the Department, with officials sitting there, on 26 October.

On 28 November, I am sure the Minister got this document. Did she get this document, the terms of reference? It is dated September 2023. She has told the public that there is no reference in that document to oversight of exit packages but there is; it is in clause H.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Thank you Deputy. Your time is up now.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The date is on that document and I want to know if the Minister knew that.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The time is up, Deputy Doherty, please.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I will finish on this question. Did the Minister discuss with any official on that Thursday that Siún Ní Raghallaigh's position was untenable and that it would be better if she was not there as a member of the board?

Finally, will the Minister stop the drip, drip-----

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The time is up, Deputy.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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-----and publish all of the documentation that we asked for over a week ago?

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I appeal to Deputies to please adhere to the time allowed.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I do not know the Minister well personally but I have always found her to be fine. However, I have to say that I have found her to be very much a hands-off Minister. I said previously that when she equivocated in relation to people paying their licence fee that was a sign of how she was handling this issue, and it was not good. I also said previously at the public accounts committee that if a chairperson had not told me, as Minister, that he or she had asked for the resignation of the chief executive of a State board, he or she would not be the chairperson any longer. If the Minister had dealt with that issue with the former chair of RTÉ by asking for her resignation, I would not have blamed her. For me, that was a red card offence. I said that at the committee and I stand over it. The Minister should have been told and the fact that she was not told should have raised alarm bells vis-à-visher own officials and her relationship with RTÉ. She let that pass and we have moved on considerably since then.

The Minister weighed up everything and made a disastrous decision last Thursday. She basically poured petrol on the fire to a degree that we have not seen since the Ryan Tubridy appearances before Oireachtas committees. This is a really unprecedented situation but it is of the Minister's own making.

There is an issue here in relation to facts and what happened. Let us forensically go through the remuneration committee chronology and what happened last Thursday or, for want of a better phrase, "Prime Time" day. In relation to the remuneration committee chronology, we know that on 26 September, the board signed off on the new form of packages and how they were going to be dealt with. We also know that the remuneration committee met to approve the package for Mr. Collins on 9 October. On budget day, the Secretary General got a phone call from the chair, which is now disputed, during which the chair told her about that. On 11 October, Richard Collins resigned. Subsequent to that, there was a meeting of the PAC attended by the Secretary General, Ms Catherine Licken, the assistant secretary, Ms Tríona Quill, and the principal officer, Mr. Stephen Ryan. I was at that meeting and Ms Paula Mullooly, RTÉ's legal affairs director, said that new terms of reference requiring the remuneration committee to sign off on severance packages had been drawn up. She explicitly said that the new terms were designed to cover not only executive pay and presenters but also exit packages. She said the terms were signed off on 26 September.

There is one burning question here for me. If that was said at the PAC and departmental officials were all sitting there, how can anyone stand over the assertion that Richard Collins's package was not part of that? It would have had to be signed off by the remuneration committee, which would have to have been known by the Minister's officials. For me, that is not credible. It is also not credible, as the Minister kept repeating yesterday, that her officials were in daily contact with RTÉ. From 26 September until 28 November, when RTÉ forwarded all of these documents, and despite sitting at the public accounts committee meeting where I and other members of that committee heard Ms Mullooly say this, nobody asked a question. Nobody knew anything about the fact that Mr. Collins's package would have had to be under the new arrangements. That is not credible. It is not credible that they did not know. I previously had the privilege of sitting on the other side of the House and there is no way officials in my Department would not have known something like that. It is not possible. The only way the Minister would not know is if they chose not to tell her, which is even more worrying, but I will get back to that later.

Then we come to last Thursday, "Prime Time" day. The Department got a phone call at 10 a.m., during which the former chair confessed to the error of not reminding the Minister. I believe she actually thought she had told Department officials and they had told the Minister. The Minister was taken aback and at 11 a.m., the assistant secretary contacted the former chair to tell her of the Minister's concerns. Ms Ni Raghallaigh said she had told Ms Licken about this. At 2.30 p.m., the former chair expressed her unhappiness at the prospect of a letter she had been told was being sent to her and said she would have to consider her position. That was the moment when everything kicked off because now the race was on. The likelihood is that the chair was going to resign anyway after that threat. Indeed, anyone in that position would do so if he or she was going to receive such a letter.

How was the Minister going to take control of this? Ms Ní Raghallaigh called the assistant secretary to say there was a press query at 4.30 p.m. How was this press query manufactured? In all likelihood it had to come from some arm of government because no one else knew. The Minister was going on "Prime Time" later. The programme makers did not know because the Minister had to tell them of these issues. At 6.45 p.m., there was a call from the Secretary General to the chair telling her that the Minister had decided to issue the formal letter. Between 5.30 p.m. and 6 p.m., the Minister changed her mind regarding the prearranged interview and decided to go live instead. That happened because the letter had to issue. The letter was received at 7.36 p.m. and that would not have been possible if the Minister had been interviewed at 7 p.m. That is why the change was made. Out in RTÉ a member of the Minister's staff had to tell "Prime Time" staff about this, to ask this question, and consequently the "Prime Time" programme and time schedules likely changed.

The Minister keeps saying that the relationship was between her and the chair so I do not understand why she could not pick up the phone and ring her. The decision was made to issue the letter. Once the chair decided that if this letter was issued, she would be resigning, the orchestration had to be put in place in relation to what happened last Thursday night. That is how it reads to me, factually. That is how the chronology reads to me. That is the proposition that I see and any fair-minded person sees, and that is not good.

I also want to point out the things the Minister did not say on "Prime Time". She did not say that the chair had phoned the Department that morning to say that she had made an inadvertent error. She did not say that the chair claimed that she told the Department, through the Secretary General, in October of the previous year or that the assistant secretary had called the former chair earlier that day to inform her of this. I worry deeply about the Minister's relationship with her officials. I wish some people on the media committee had asked officials certain questions yesterday. They need to be asked some questions because there is an issue here. Either they were not asking pertinent questions about what was going on with remuneration packages when they should have been or they did know but did not tell the Minister. Either one of those scenarios is bad but the latter is worse.

The real concern here is that the Minister, in the context of the future of RTÉ, has put herself right in the middle of it. She was not out the gap last week but she was not far away. She was not the centre of attention. She got annoyed by reports in the media last weekend. Those reports jolted her confidence.

The Labour Party's argument is that this knowledge had to be known in the Department. It is blatantly obvious the Department either decided not to tell the Minister, or it refused to acknowledge it. The Minister was nearly out the gap. She decided to put herself into the middle of it and by doing so she has now put herself in a situation where it is a choice between her future or the future of RTÉ. That is unfortunate. It should never have come to this. At the Minister's meeting on Friday, how in the name of God can the board actually have confidence in the Minister? How in the name of God can a chairperson be appointed who will have confidence that the Minister will be able to deal with him or her in such a way that the chair will be able to do his or her work? That is the real question facing this Government, this House and the people looking at this today.

Ultimately, given the Minister's actions, the way in which this has been managed by the Department and the Minister's hands-off approach, it has now come down to a situation whether it is either the future of RTÉ or the Minister continuing at the helm of this sinking ship. Unfortunately, only one decision is possible, based on that analysis.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There is no doubt that Kevin Bakhurst and Siún Ní Raghallaigh faced significant issues that predated their appointments. The hope was that major reforms would happen to address the issues that initially arose about the earnings of Ryan Tubridy but which revealed many other issues since last April. Two of the reports initiated by RTÉ have revealed additional information on which much debate has ensued. They were published in January. Two further reports were initiated by the Minister, Deputy Martin, which will no doubt open up a further debate before we get to the end of this process where the fog will not properly clear.

The last thing we needed was another incendiary device thrown into an already difficult situation. From what I could see when she came before the Committee on Public Accounts, Siún Ní Raghallaigh was refreshingly candid. She was a source of confidence that the necessary reforms would be implemented and that we were in a new era. The fact that Ms Ní Raghallaigh has tendered her resignation in a manner she felt forced to do is therefore regrettable.

I find it astonishing that there is no written record in the Department with respect to termination deals. That is basic stuff that should have been provided in the circumstances. Instead there seems to have been a reliance on phone calls and side chats. How can that be acceptable to the Minister? I expected the Minister would insist on a paper trail, particularly following the changes initiated in September whereby the remuneration committee had a specific function. I also expected the Minister would have a political nose for the further problems that would arise, including having a deepened curiosity about details rather than just seeking assurances. That does not appear to have happened at all. The reality is RTÉ cannot afford to stand still. While changes are being made, it seems the Minister is unable to initiate actions until reports are produced, even when obvious changes are needed in real time. I get the impression that the Minister is taking an arm's-length approach rather than a sleeves-up approach, which is what is necessary.

When the CFO exited RTÉ a mediator process was set up. There are obvious questions in a mediated process. What was the result of the mediation? The Minister should have insisted on having the conclusion of that. As for the exit of the head of strategy who was responsible for Toy Show The Musical, most people presumed, as had I, that this was a simple resignation given the financial fiasco that was Toy Show The Musical. However, a large exit package was paid. It is unforgivable that there is no written record to the Department and that it was not insisted upon. Such things are basic practice. The issue of severance packages and their relationship with the two redundancy programmes was interrogated at the Committee of Public Accounts. The director general undertook to investigate those properly. That is where the McCann Fitzgerald report came in, which was published in January. Ten cases did not comply nor satisfy the requirements of what a redundancy should mean. In the case of the former CFO, Ms O'Keeffe, there was no savings to the broadcaster. Yet, the second business case does not appear to have been done even when it became obvious that there would be no savings made. While some of that pre-dates last April, when some of this information came into public light, the size of the payout was breathtaking. It is rounded down to €400,000 from €450,000. The €50,000 did not seem to matter but yet, RTÉ was repeatedly told us it was cash-strapped.

Ms Forbes assumed an incredible amount of power to herself. It is frustrating that some people have not been able to make themselves available for some committee hearings and reports. Ms Forbes would be key in that regard and if anything, that elongates the process. That is all the more reason there needs to be a hands-on approach.

While there might be better oversight, there was an expectation that there would be an end to large payouts given the precarious position RTÉ is in and the number of people who will lose their jobs at the station. That is why it is so important to have a hands-on approach and a written record of what happened. Had the issue about Ryan Tubridy’s earnings not emerged, it is not obvious whether the information regarding the extent of the losses on Toy Show The Musicalwould ever have been known. I raised this issue at the Committee of Public Accounts in December 2022, in real time, when the show was still going on. It was obvious that it was going to be a financial failure. Instead of the business case, RTÉ gave us a reply outlining the business processes but not the business case. There was a series of huge failures, which is all the more reason to take a hands-on approach.

What is needed now is an assurance that there is going to be a change in the Minister's approach. I do not believe we need to wait until reports are produced. They are important reports about culture and so on but there is no reason to prevaricate about changing the law in regard to the Comptroller and Auditor General being the auditor, which goes beyond just simple auditing and will bring oversight of controls and governance issues. It seems self-evident to act on that at this stage. Everybody is saying it. I have been saying it since last summer. We need to be fully assured that the many failures exposed since last April are fully addressed and that there is an end to the two-tiered culture within the organisation where there is a sense of entitlement at the top. That culture does not appear to be gone when we see some of these payouts.

More than ever, in an era of misinformation and disinformation, there is a need for reliable news and information mainly in relation to social media. In her opening remarks, the Minister talked about the Future of Media Commission. I was quite critical at the time that the terms of reference did not properly include social media for consideration, given the amount of advertising revenue that has been diverted away from both broadcasting and print media and where social media rebroadcast stories and other broadcast material on their platforms without having to pay for those. It should have been self-evident that we need to look at that. We are looking at something that is being future-proofed. That should have come into the equation in regard to the funding of public service broadcasting.

Each time Ms Forbes came before the Committee of Public Accounts, she held out the begging bowl.

There were also the Eversheds reports and other things we have talked about over the years at the Committee of Public Accounts. While it is more than regrettable that, due to her health, she was not able to appear and deal with those, there was an obvious conflict on her watch between the begging bowl and the scale of some of the salaries, the lavish exit packages, the behaviour with regard to spending around the barter accounts and the lack of any rigorous business case for ventures such as Toy Show The Musical. This all shows a reckless culture in the upper echelons of RTÉ that we need to be certain has ended.

The last thing we needed, given it was in fairly tenuous position anyway, was for it to have been completely derailed. The Minister had committed to going on “Prime Time” but there is a naïveté in her saying she did not expect to be asked if she had confidence. It was the obvious question a journalist was going to ask when the Minister was clearly showing she had serious issues. I do not think the Minister needs an adviser to tell her that question was going to be asked because it is self-evident. I find it incredible that the Minister would say she was not expecting that.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The situation in RTÉ at this point is an absolute shambles. It has been going on for nine months since the revelations about the extraordinary, large, secret payments to Ryan Tubridy on top of the obscene salary he received and, indeed, the salaries many other top presenters received, and many executives were receiving obscene salaries. There was outrage, there were hearings, there was questioning, there was going to be reform and a grip was going to be got on this. Here we are, nine months later, and the issue which outraged the public remains with us: top executives who presided over a shambles walking away with enormous golden handshakes on top of salaries they received which most ordinary workers could never dream of. That is what outrages people. I contrast the golden handshakes being received by these executives with, for example, the Debenhams workers who gave 25 and sometimes up to 40 years of service to a company that just upped and left them with nothing, and the Government said “We can do nothing about it.” There was no money available to compensate them for being screwed to the wall by a company to which they had been loyal for 20 or 30 years. Yet, we do not know who signed off on the big payouts to the top executives in RTÉ in the aftermath of a scandal about secret payments and barter accounts on top of obscene salaries. There has been a shocking failure to get to grips with this.

I am less concerned, frankly, about the “Who knew what when?” and more concerned with the failure of the Government to get on top of this nine months afterwards, while the same issues that were at the heart of the public outrage and the scandal persist with regard to the non-disclosure agreements about big payouts to people who presided over misgovernance and a financial debacle. We still do not know. Nobody seems to know. To me, that is shocking.

There is something elementary, as far as I am concerned. It is a public service broadcaster. In the public service, for the most part, we know what the salary grades are, we know what politicians get paid, we know what civil servants get paid and it is publicly available information. However, in a publicly funded national broadcaster, we have non-disclosure agreements and big exit payments. We have not got on top of that, we do not have the information and there are still rows about “Who knew what when?” and about the decision to sign off on these payments. It is shambolic. It is indicative of the way in which State-funded bodies, agencies, semi-States and so on can operate at arm’s length - that is the phrase that has been used - from ministerial and governmental responsibility. This is the issue that has to be addressed.

To my mind, the really unfortunate thing about all of this is that the people who are actually going to suffer at the end of the day, and who are suffering, are the ordinary workers in RTÉ, who could never dream of the salaries these top executives were getting and they will certainly not be getting these big exit payments, yet hundreds of their jobs are facing suppression. The exact thing that should not have happened is almost certainly going to happen. Hundreds of decent jobs, not super well-paid jobs but the jobs of ordinary workers, are to be suppressed. The quality of public service broadcasting inevitably will be degraded as a result because it is precisely the jobs that actually make the place work, rather than those of the top executives, that will be suppressed and outsourced. That is compounding the situation of bogus self-employment and outsourcing of what used to be decent jobs to the private sector. That is the net result and it will degrade the quality of public service.

The hiatus that has been created is a governmental responsibility due to not getting to grips with the funding model and the reform. We are still waiting for reports in March and the Government has not made any decisions about the key issues that lie at the heart of this, namely, how we are going to protect, support and finance public service broadcasting but reform its governance to make sure these outrageous salaries and exit payments end, things become transparent and properly governed, and the people who make decisions are properly held responsible.

I sort of wonder if the Government wanted this thing to roll on because it has been a convenient punching bag. For once, those in the Government were not the ones under the cosh and there was a certain joy and satisfaction in that the Government could point the finger at people who were not politicians and blame them. That is not to say they were not without fault, but the tragedy is that the people who end up really paying are the ordinary workers, who genuinely were not at fault, and the taxpayer and the television licence payer, who should have the right to expect decent, properly funded, high-quality public service broadcasting. I singularly hold the Government responsible for failing to get on top of this.

As a last word, I personally believe this is potentially the tip of a very big iceberg, as I have said. As the Minister knows, in the other area with which I am concerned, there is a very big overlap between RTÉ and the Irish audiovisual sector, and in the Irish film sector in particular, and many of the people who have crossed over from one to the other also receive huge amounts of public money. To my mind, there is no proper oversight and governance of how that money is spent and whether the State is getting back what it is supposed to get in terms of quality employment and training.

I acknowledge the Minister held a forum recently, which I attended, but it was very interesting, given what we are hearing from ordinary RTÉ workers about how their jobs are jeopardised and how they are suffering the consequences of the decisions made at the top by top executives, that we heard much the same from quite a wide variety of people at that film industry forum, who talked about their precarious employment situation. They wonder how all of this public money goes in, yet many of them have a completely precarious existence.

Again, a small number of people at the top are the major beneficiaries of large amounts of public money while the Government seems to keep it all at arm's length, never properly looking into whether the public - because it is public money - is getting what it is supposed to get for this large investment and whether the workers in these industries, whether RTÉ or the film sector, are getting the secure and decent quality employment they deserve. The signs suggest it is the workers who will pay and that the quality of public service broadcasting will be degraded. I bet that it will be areas like arts, culture and music that will pay. As RTÉ will have to keep the news and current affairs, it is the other stuff that will be suppressed, outsourced and privatised, again adding to the precarity faced by people who work in the arts and cultural sector. I hold the Government collectively responsible for this. It is shambolic that after nine months, we are still facing the same issues.

Peter Fitzpatrick (Louth, Independent)
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The problems that exist in RTÉ are not of the Minister, Deputy Martin's making by any means. While I do not agree with how the situation was handled last week, the Minister is focused on her work in supporting RTÉ. She has been a champion for RTÉ and for the importance of public service broadcasting. Her sole focus has been on getting the truth, achieving maximum transparency and holding people accountable for the roles they have had within RTÉ. It can be a very difficult job, especially if you do not feel fully confident that you are getting full and accurate information. While there is debate as to who said what and who knew what, it is evident that both the Minister and the chair of the RTÉ board made mistakes, as was discussed at last night's committee meeting. As I have stated, I was not very happy with the way the Minister handled it and we had a battle last night. At the same time, I am confident that there was no intentional misrepresentation. However, the facts are still the same; people got packages they should not have got and there is no transparency or accountability, which is what is needed.

At the end of the day, RTÉ staff are hurting. This ongoing scandal affects them every day they show up for work at the broadcaster. Their wages were cut and infrastructure was devastated in the period of cutbacks. Despite scandal after scandal, we are getting nowhere. I have confidence in the Minister, Deputy Martin, to turn the tide on these scandals. Our vision needs to be very clear, regardless of any damage that has been done in a very limited broadcast in RTÉ.

It is no wonder that people are refraining from paying their TV licence fees. Reform is needed. The people deserve transparency from everybody. It is time to acknowledge that the entire environment has now changed as a result of the RTÉ scandals, which have exacerbated the organisation's funding challenges. The Government has failed for too long to address the question of how to fund public service broadcasting. All possible options need to be considered, learning from our international counterparts while considering both ideas put forward by the technical working group and the Future of Media Commission's original recommendations. We also need to consider the decline in TV licence receipts and the continuing shift in media consumption patterns.

With that in mind, there is a real opportunity for us to work with the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media in taking a modern and progressive approach to resolving the issues in RTÉ. It is imperative that we deliver a secure and sustainable source of funding. A future funding model must not only put RTÉ on a more sustainable footing but also must support other public service media providers and content producers to continue to provide high-quality public service content for the benefit of our entire society. We have a lot of creative talent on this island who need funding to create content but they oftentimes do not get enough. The landscape now is very different from the landscape when the RTÉ model was set up. Continuing shifts in media consumption patterns need to be accounted for and funding needs to be provided to address this issue. Centrally, we need a sustainable funding model for the national broadcaster, RTÉ, but the funding also needs to extend to the likes of TG4, Virgin Media and other media organisations at a national and a regional level, including local independent radio and print providers, that contribute to public service media content. The landscape has changed, which means the model has to change.

Overall, it is clear to see that the Minister is passionate about reforming RTÉ and its funding model with all options on the table, including a new media levy or direct Exchequer funding. She has worked to get to the truth, to achieve maximum transparency and to hold people accountable for the roles that they have had within RTÉ since June 2023.

The Minister kept mentioning the word "trust" today. It is very important that we restore trust in RTÉ. We also need reform. As I said to the Minister last night, I am not happy with how the chairperson was treated but we have to move forward. This has been going on for nine months. As I said, the Minister and I had a battle here last night but I am confident that she is capable of sorting out RTÉ. I hope it will be sorted out sooner rather than later.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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It is absolutely true to say that the RTÉ omnishambles has been dragging on for months and is getting worse by the month under the Minister's management. It is a depressing soap opera that is dragging down the confidence of the people within RTÉ. It is also having a financial impact. We see that the amounts collected in licence fees are collapsing, which is obviously also damaging to RTÉ. It is also having a significant effect on morale within RTÉ. The Minister's stewardship of this particular role over the last nine months has led to things getting worse in RTÉ. Even on that issue of the licence fee, it is important to say that this Government will not make a decision about the licence fee because, for the Government, inertia is a better strategy in an election year. It simply will not make a decision. It will not risk doing so in case it has a negative effect on the electoral chances of Government Members with the people of Ireland.

One of the things that is really frustrating about this fiasco factory is that it is eclipsing much of what is happening in Ireland at the moment. There are incredible difficulties. I am thinking of the national children's hospital. I sometimes wonder whether it is easier for people to understand a €200,000 exit package than the €2.25 billion of wasted investment represented by the overspend on the national children's hospital. Some 3,150 people have died as a result of accidents in HSE services over the last five years while 1,100 people died before an ambulance arrived because ambulances are arriving later and later. Some €300 million has been spent on metro north before a shovel has been put into the ground. People in Midleton are staying awake at night to act as human water gauges because of the lack of flood defences. Despite this, the bandwidth within Leinster House has been pretty much consumed by this ongoing and rolling omnishambles, which the Minister is involved in.

Even within RTÉ itself, really big questions such as the question of bogus self-employment are still not being dealt with. There exists a dichotomy in Irish society between the inner circle who are able to achieve the golden handshakes and the mothers and fathers who are in the middle of commuter hell trying to get to work and who are being forced onto bogus self-employment contracts to insulate their employers from having to pay proper sick pay, holiday pay or pension entitlements. None of those issues is being dealt with because we are flooded by the fiasco factory that has continued to produce these problems.

It is obviously the case that the Minister has not been surefooted. That is the kindest I can be about the Minister's actions over the last while. Her sacking of the chair of the RTÉ board on television the day before she was meant to speak to her was incredible. It is impossible to understand how a senior Minister would not expect a question from Miriam O'Callaghan as to her confidence in the chair. If it is the case that she was not expecting it, that raises serious question about her ability to do the job and about her experience. Is she experienced enough to fulfil her role?

The deep problem here is that the Minister is approaching these problems in an extraordinarily bureaucratic fashion. The item that highlights this approach the most is that information was given to the head of her Department last October that indicated that there had been a conclusion to the negotiations. Anybody with an ounce of curiosity would have asked what that conclusion was. However, the Minister did not even ask that question. Strategic ignorance has been used as a strategy by Ministers in the past in respect of these types of things. They do not ask because, if they do, they will know the information and will then be responsible for it. They also claim that senior people in their Department do not tell them such information.

Again, that insulates the Minister from responsibility in that regard. This is not credible at all and I do not think that anybody in the whole country believes it. It is continuing with the pretence that nobody in the Minister's Department asked what were the results of the conclusions of that negotiation. That nobody there asked this is just impossible to believe. Consider also the case where letters were being written to the chair instead of just picking up the phone. This was for issues where the Minister's connection with RTÉ was through the chair and not through anybody else. It does not show a fix-it approach of get up and go to resolve it in a practical manner. It shows an approach of a person fully confined and limited to very narrow avenues of trying to resolve really important questions. In those situations one needs a practical fixer rather than a person who is literally just a functionary on the sidelines to the crisis happening at the moment. I ask the Minister, Deputy Martin, to deal with that. How come nobody asked a question regarding the result of those negotiations?

I also want to know the timeline around when the Minister spoke to her party leader or the Taoiseach, by phone or by text, about the "Prime Time" interview. Will the Minister also explain why Katherine Licken left the Department? What were the reasons for her leaving her particular role?

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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When the Minister gave her speech here today, she said that she wanted RTÉ to be "independent and accountable". We all know they are neither independent nor accountable. It is not fully the Minister's fault, as successive Government have neglected to deal with RTÉ because it suited them. More and more in the past while, and especially during Covid, RTÉ became just a total mouthpiece for the Government narrative. It has not changed. This is why the Minister and her Government colleagues will not take them on, will not sort them out, and will not deal with them. It is just not believable.

I reiterate today in the Dáil that I have sympathy and great respect for the thousands of staff members who are doing their jobs every day throughout the country within RTÉ. The cabal at the top has been there for a long time and its members will not listen to anyone. They do not care about the Minister because they know she has been dancing and will dance to their tune. Successive Ministers and Governments have also danced to their merry tune as it suits them. It suits the Minister to drift on.

The Minister, Deputy Martin, has told us of the two reports that will be ready in March. In her speech the Minister also told us that Mazars - the well-known financial company - was looking at the finances forensically. I remember a scandal here with Mazars and the HSE. It was a massive scandal involving Mazars. Deloitte and Touche was in as the RTÉ auditor but failed to see anything. A blind man would see what was going on in there. It failed to see it and yet it was reappointed. The Minister said at a previous committee that it would take 18 months to recruit new people. It is a cosy circle and the cabal has extended. It is a cosy cartel of a cabal. The issue with money has been going on for decades. When I came in here in 2007 we found out that the wages paid to the top people at that time were a staggering €800,000-plus. There is €20 million put away in a fund in order that it can settle with the taxman. There are five of us here in the Rural Independent Group who are self-employed people. We would love the benefit of being able to put away money and talk to the taxman when we decide whether workers are bogus self-employed or not. No other company, sole trader or PAYE worker would get any such latitude.

Why is the Minister's Government protecting RTÉ; the sacred cow out in Montrose? Why is Revenue being held off from doing its business and doing its job in dealing with them? Why not send in the fraud squad, which I called for on 1 July last year when this first broke? No, the Minister is protecting them and doing report after report like everything else. The Government has a sad legacy such as the massive overspend on the new children's hospital and the issues around broadband roll-out - you name it. This, however, beats them all. This situation is being enabled by the cabal. The cabal is expanding and the mire gets deeper and deeper. I have a feeling it will bring down the Government before very long because there is such an endemic rot there at the very top; not with ordinary level people. Ms Doherty, the former director general, Ms Forbes, and all those people must be brought in - be it through a subpoena or however else - and be held accountable. I do not believe the Minister or her Government have the energy to tackle it.

Carol Nolan (Laois-Offaly, Independent)
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We are all well aware that the institutional reputation of RTÉ has never been so low or so degraded. Through a series of scandals, blunders, incompetence and outright negligence around good corporate governance, the situation is now a full blown omnishambles. The public are responding by withholding payment of the licence fee in record numbers. Ordinary people I speak to are not just angry with RTÉ and the Minister, they are absolutely disgusted by the arrogance they see and by RTÉ's arrogance. For some bizarre reason RTÉ feels it has a right to our trust; it does not. Its coverage of everything, from climate to immigration to the impact of Government policies on rural Ireland, has been absolutely woeful and unbalanced. Independent media has stepped up to the mark and has shown more respect to the communities in this State than RTÉ has. The independent media sector has shown itself to be far more professional, competent, trustworthy, balanced and fair. RTÉ should hold its head in shame. I have seen what has gone on in communities. Very few people I know trust a single word that emerges from RTÉ. This is the direct result of its own spectacular abuse of the privileged position it once enjoyed. RTÉ should be allowed to go the way of Virgin Media or even Sky and if people want to support it, then let them freely choose it through subscriptions.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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The Minister, Deputy Martin, has been in charge of her portfolio for four years now. Has the Minister ever had any concerns since she became the Minister about the massive size of payments to some presenters? Maybe some of them were worth it but I could name two that were not; Joe Duffy and Ray D'Arcy. Did the Minister ever consider how little was being paid to the people behind the scenes?

Has the Minister ever inquired as to how much the board members or the executives were being paid? Did the Minister ever inquire into any of this? Is the Minister aware that the seller of a residential property must declare what he or she gets for it. It is galling to think that these people can get such massive exit packages. It is taxpayer's money and yet the Minister will not demand them to come out with what they are getting. Consider the farmers who get farm payments from Europe to supplement them for producing cheap food because they were not getting paid enough. All of their payments have to be registered. The small fellas above on the Mangerton Mountain or back in Glencar must all declare their payments.

Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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If I was running RTÉ, it would be run like a business. RTÉ is funded by this Government and it is a stakeholder in it. It is supposed to be a national television station.

All they are doing is selling false information, as Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael have been giving to their members for many years. It is all one-sided reporting. They have no respect for the people who work in RTÉ. They are being directed by the Government on what to say and when to say it. This is what is wrong with RTÉ. I have been a supporter of RTÉ all my life but if I was to look at RTÉ as a business and see what it puts out even at Christmas, which is stuff from 50 years ago, no wonder it is being subsidised. If it were run like Virgin Media or Sky at least, it would be sustainable and progressive but it is not. RTÉ needs to tell both sides of the story not like the Government.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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We need a national broadcaster and that is a fact but I see the excellent work that other media outlets, such as Radio Kerry do on a shoestring. They run an extremely efficient business and do great work on a shoestring. Why must the model of RTÉ be as it is? I will give an example. I will not name the person but there is a man who does all the bemoaning, shouting, grumbling and grousing every day. He has been on €1,000 a day seven days a week for as long as I can remember. He is on the radio complaining about politicians. Of course, his motto is to complain about everybody. Tell the people he is getting €1,000 a day seven days a week for the past how many years and smiling away quite happily with it. How does this make sense? He berates every politician that we could throw a stick or a stone at and says we are all disgrace and we are this and we are that. He is there creaming his €1,000 a day all the same.

No one of us is perfect. I have to be honest; I was not really impressed with what the Minister did the last night and the way she aired the business and the way she did it. I thought it was wrong. She should have handled it differently. I will not make hay out of it because I do not do that type of thing. I really do think we need a national broadcaster but, my God, the Minister needs to shake it up. We need to put it right. We need to bring back its reputation. I will say again, and I know the Ceann Comhairle would agree with it personally, back over the years RTÉ did great things. We had great presenters. They produced great programmes. Who could think of programmes such as "Glenroe" without a smile on their face? You would say "God bless Miley and God bless the rest of them". There were great people. We have RTÉ to thank for an awful lot of things over the years.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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What about "The Riordans"?

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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And Benjy in "The Riordans" as well and Maggie and all of them. They were great people. We were very proud of them and that is not a joke. It is fact. The Minister should not knock the whole thing now. We need to keep our national broadcaster but please try to get it right.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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They are not woke now.

Violet-Anne Wynne (Clare, Independent)
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I honestly do not know what to say and whose word can be trusted in this saga anymore - the Minister, the former chair, the DG, the Minister's officials and advisers, the former Secretary General of the Department or the string of characters that have now disappeared off into the sunset with a full wallet. The State broadcaster, which is on its knees, is playing Monopoly money with public funds while at the same time community radio stations throughout Ireland, including Raidio Corca Baiscinn in Kilkee in my constituency, struggle to keep themselves on air. It is an absolute disgrace and a failure through and through.

Can the Government get a handle on this saga? While the national focus has been on this pathetic episode, the HSE has stopped answering parliamentary questions and representations for four months; the CEO of UL Hospitals Group has disappeared and been replaced without any question from this House, the same hospital has put children in the grave due to mismanagement, 28,000 farmers are waiting for ACRES payments, and there are never-ending waiting lists for CAMHS, early intervention services, CDNTs, assessments of need, spinal surgeries, driver tests, dentist and GP appointments. The list goes on.

Since the summer we have had countless hours of debate in this House about RTÉ burning money and here we are again today with yet more new information. What handle do the Minister and her officials actually have on this crisis? From where I am standing, all that has been done is that the chair has been sacked on live television. How much is too much? How far is too far? I am genuinely at a loss for words at this point. This fiasco is pathetic and disgraceful.

Last week we had the revelation from the Minister for Health in respect of the €19 million for scoliosis treatment and the scandal of the money not being spent or used in the way it was supposed to be. Is that theme going to continue? The parallels and similarities on the issues seem quite apparent.

Catherine Martin (Dublin Rathdown, Green Party)
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Ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabháil leis na Teachtaí as a gcuid rannpháirtíochta ar an gceist seo inniu. Tá sé tábhachtach díospóireacht a bheith againn sa Dáil ar gach aon rud a bhaineann le cúrsaí na meáin agus an craoltóir náisiúnta. Tá todhchaí an craoltóir náisiúnta thar a bheith tábhachtach agus tá mise tiomanta mar Aire na meáin cinneadh a dhéanamh maidir leis an gceist ar mhaoiniú seachtrach fadtéarmach.

I am confident that we are all as one on the importance of addressing the wider issues of trust in RTÉ and providing a secure and sustainable future for public service media in Ireland. I acknowledge the concern of Oireachtas Members, the public and staff in RTÉ regarding the future stability of RTÉ. This crisis has gone on for eight months. Our public service media play a vital role in the functioning of our democracy and ensuring that our diverse Irish culture and Irish artists are shown on our screens and heard on our radios. For this reason since the beginning of this crisis I have done everything in my power to restore trust and stability to RTÉ.

In my opening statement, I set out the detail of the actions I have taken to address the issue of governance and culture and matters relating to contractor fees and employee terms and conditions at RTÉ. I await the reports of these two expert advisory committees next month and the comprehensive set of recommendations for the reform of RTÉ, which it is expected they will make. These will be in addition to the reform measures being implemented by RTÉ and they will chart a way forward in rebuilding trust in RTÉ.

The reduction in television licence fee receipts represents a challenge to the stability of funding of RTÉ and with it the financial survival of the organisation and to the wider media sector through the impact on the sound and vision scheme. As an initial step in addressing this, I secured a combined €56 million in additional Exchequer funding for RTÉ for last year and this year. This was in line with the interim funding recommended by the Future of Media Commission and the further analysis and recommendations of NewERA. I am also fully committed to bringing forward a new funding model for public service media. There has been much discussion on this point over many years and there has been a failure on behalf of previous Governments to tackle this issue. It is now time to grasp this issue and put in place a funding model that is sustainable, protects media freedom and independence and is publicly acceptable. In that we should consider the Exchequer funding model in our discussions.

People have expressed concerns about the potential risk of political interference in funding for public service media but this risk exists in all models, such as the current model, in relation to setting the level of the licence fee or any household charge where, again, the charge would be set at a political level. The challenge is to safeguard against these risks. The Future of Media Commission set out such safeguards which, importantly, include funding levels being established and recommended by the independent regulator, Coimisiún na Meán, and that there would be limited scope for the Government to reject recommended funding levels. Multi-annual funding was also recommended, which brings the matters somewhat outside the annual budgetary negotiations.

The protections have been considered by the Future of Media Commission. When we decide on the model, there will be further detailed analysis to inform and underpin the necessary legislation to give effect to the new model. This has been done elsewhere and it can be done here. I do, however, firmly believe that we can only proceed with this after we have received the reports of the expert advisory committees, which will inform the continued reform of RTÉ so that we can all have trust and confidence in the broadcaster. This will also be facilitated by many of the changes we already made to the framework for media regulation and development in our country, including the new media regulator, Coimisiún na Meán, and the decision to proceed with introducing new funding supports for the wider sector, including local and national newspapers.

I thank the Deputies for their contributions this afternoon and I will address a number of issues they have raised. To respond to Deputies Munster, Gould and Boyd Barrett, as I stated in my opening statement the funding model will be decided after the expert advisory committee recommendations. They are key to reform. Reform goes hand in glove with the funding model. We have to see the recommendations. We have to see the commitment from RTÉ to implement the recommendations. There may be necessary recommendations for the Government when it comes to legislation. I expect those recommendations next month. I am determined to make a decision on the future funding model, which I outlined to Deputy Gould as recently as two weeks ago and again last night, before the summer.

Deputy Munster spoke about the C and AG. Deputy Gould raised the matter as well. I have stated several times that this is worthy of consideration, but I am waiting for the expert advisory committee’s recommendations to see if it is included.

Deputy Gould spoke about communication with the chief of staff. I outlined to the chief of staff that new information had come to light about the role of the board in one of these severance packages. The chief of staff knew that I had a pre-arranged agreement to appear on “Prime Time”.

In reply to Deputies Gould and Doherty, I had not made a decision about the chair. I just outlined the facts to the chiefs of staff as they emerged. If I am seeking information and tell people that I need the facts at all times, it is important that I inform the chiefs of staff of the facts as they emerge.

In reply to Deputy Doherty, it is essential that any Minister for media, be it me in this Government or someone else, can rely on having accurate information. I must be confident that I am receiving accurate information. It emerged last week that was not the case. I met the chair on Monday and Wednesday. As I outlined to the committee yesterday, a cover letter that I received when RTÉ wrote to me about the legal advice contained a paragraph that jumped out at me immediately and seemed to contradict what had been said clearly to me on Monday in the meeting with the chair when I asked her whether she had had any role whatsoever and when I went out to correct the record publicly on Monday. Although I was clear on Monday, I really interrogated that point on Wednesday. I was told that not only was there no role whatsoever for the chair or the board, but that the new terms of reference for the remuneration committee and its chair would take effect in future.

Deputies Kelly, Doherty and Tóibín asked why I did not pick up the phone to the chair. I heard that question yesterday. It was problematic that I was given inaccurate information several times at two meetings with my officials present. I believed it was essential not to rely on a phone call. Issues were emerging on Thursday when I was told that the former chair “imagined” she had said something in a phone call, so I was not just going to have a phone call with her. I also believed that the issue was significant enough to require a face-to-face meeting.

As to predicting questions, no Minister doing an interview can predict questions. Instead, he or she expects all questions. In my interview, I did everything in my power not to say I had no confidence. I was trying to keep the door open and I kept repeating that I wanted to be afforded the opportunity to speak to the chair in person. I tried everything in my power to keep that door open and not say, “No confidence”.

Deputy Kelly stated that the former chair made a call to the Department last Thursday and that the purpose of the call was to say she had forgotten to remind me. I wish to correct the record. She actually rang to say she had forgotten that she had given inaccurate information and had chaired the actual committee that approved the severance package.

Deputy Kelly queried whether I outlined yesterday the sequence of events on Thursday. I believe I did that quite clearly. The Deputy may have missed it,-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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No, I watched it.

Catherine Martin (Dublin Rathdown, Green Party)
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-----but I did it clearly at the committee. I offered to furnish a detailed note on every conversation that occurred with the officials and chair on Thursday. I am happy to provide that and the committee will have it. I stated clearly the timeline of last Thursday’s communications with my Department and I offered to share with the committee the note taken of those communications.

I will meet the board this week. For that meeting, it has already been flagged that the focus will be on moving forward together. That is crucial and I look forward to the meeting. I have always had a focus on ensuring that the reforms are put in place. This is about more than just RTÉ, though. It is about putting public service media on a safe footing. I will move to appoint a new chair at the earliest possible time.

Deputies Murphy, Wynne, Kelly, Doherty and Munster, and possibly others, asked what I had done since this crisis emerged. As Minister, I have to respect the statutory independence of RTÉ, which is vital if people are to have confidence and trust in the impartiality of the public service broadcaster and in its operations being free from political interference. However, I have always said that establishing facts is important. We need to achieve a fundamental change and alter the rules of the game. That is what the past eight months have been about and what my focus has been on. I have set up the investigations, which will chart our way forward. These expert advisory committee reviews are independent and the only committees that will make recommendations. All of the other reports have fed into them. Most recently, I asked the DG to consider further how the question of severance packages was managed. The code of practice for these bodies states that any such agreement should be the exception rather than the norm, but it appears that it was the opposite way around. I have insisted that, if packages are necessary, then they must still be the exception. I have also asked the DG to consider capping any such packages, especially at the executive level. He has agreed to give this matter the serious consideration it deserves. I asked the DG to bring forward the strategic vision for RTÉ that he published in November. I have ensured secure and interim funding, which is required to provide security and certainty for the organisation, its staff and all the workers who depend on RTÉ.

It must be recognised that significant strides are being made towards reform and rebuilding trust. The Government and I, as Minister, will never be deflected from the prioritised task of delivering reform and being the first Government to deliver a long-term, working and sustainable model. It is essential to restore trust, accountability and confidence in the national broadcaster, even if that means taking difficult decisions. Not being transparent is not an option and would be a contravention of the Government’s repeated goal of doing all it can to ensure maximum transparency. In my opinion, maximum transparency is key to the reform.

In reply to Deputy Munster, the Department of Social Protection is continuing its scope investigation into the classification and potential reclassification of a group of contractors at RTÉ. As with other HR matters at RTÉ, neither my Department or I have any involvement in the process.

In reply to Deputy Murphy, I will wait for the reports of the expert advisory committees. I will not pre-empt more than seven months of incredible work on culture, governance, staff, HR matters and equality. That will only be a few weeks away and I will not pre-empt the decisions.

Regarding the governance framework, under the Broadcasting Act, my direct relationship with RTÉ is with the chair of the board. The code of practice for the governance of State bodies refers to areas where there is an obligation on the chairperson to keep the Minister informed. The Broadcasting Act requires the DG to furnish the board of the corporation with information on the performance of his or her functions as the board may require from time to time. It is clear that the chair provides me with information and the DG reports to the chair. To reiterate, the DG reports to the chair and the chair reports to me.

I wish to put on the record again that I believe the former chair was a genuine, committed and dedicated chair. Unfortunately, a situation emerged where I could not be confident that I was receiving accurate information. As I said many times yesterday, I do not believe that was intentional. I believe that she was the most genuine, dedicated and committed chair, especially under stressful circumstances over the past eight months, but a situation arose where I could not rely on information, and that is problematic when dealing with a crisis.

In response to Deputy Tóibín, the matter of the former Secretary General is quite plain and simple. She retired after decades of dedicated work as a civil servant.

I see my time is almost gone. Deputies Kelly, Doherty and others raised the role of the remuneration committee. The understanding in my Department, including as told to me by the chair last Wednesday, was that in future, severance packages would require board sign-off. The chair, who is the direct line of communication to me, said only last Wednesday that this would happen in the future. My understanding was that the severance package agreed in relation to Richard Collins was signed off at executive level. This is the important point. At no point was it clear to me or my officials that the board, through the RTÉ chair's role on the remuneration committee, had a role in approving the Richard Collins package. The receipt of incomplete documentation in early September, passing comments in an Oireachtas committee on 12 October after a three-month process comes to an end or the receipt of a further 19 corporate documents in December does not change that fundamental point. At no point did RTÉ make any attempt to bring to my attention, in the appropriate, formal channel, that the new system had applied to Richard Collins. While there may be differing recollections as to what might have been said in the telephone conversation or what might have been imagined to have been said, it is clear that RTÉ did not at any point put on the record that the remuneration board had signed off on the exit package.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I thank the Minister. Is there something essential she needs to add?

Catherine Martin (Dublin Rathdown, Green Party)
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I think it is important that we end on a positive note. I believe that each and every person here values public service media. In response to some comments made today, I would like to put on the record the incredible work that is done by the staff in RTÉ. We saw, especially through Covid, high-quality, trustworthy, reliable information in a difficult situation. We all appreciated that and we still do. It is incredibly important in this day and age that we have access to reliable, trustworthy information. I would like to say thank you to the staff who do that and who provide essential cultural content, sporting content and entertainment. In putting on the record an appreciation of that, I believe I speak for a majority of people here. That is why my focus is on this finally being the Government that grasps the nettle and puts RTÉ on a sure footing. It is important to put that on the record.