Dáil debates
Tuesday, 27 February 2024
Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate
Recycling Policy
11:15 pm
Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We have heard a lot of talk in the past few months about the new deposit return scheme. The scheme is welcome and the vast majority realise it is important because people want to do the right thing. However, the company, Re-Turn, tasked with rolling out the scheme did not do the right thing by disabled people. In 2018, Ireland ratified the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. Article 4(3) of that convention states that consultation with disabled people and their representative organisations, disabled persons organisations, DPOs, should take place on all Government or public body schemes or programmes. I know of one organisation that was consulted a number of months ago by the company and told it would be back to it for consultation, but no follow-up was done. I am not aware of any other consultation with any organisations or individuals.
I think it is obvious that there was no consultation. I am not sure if the Minister of State has used the machines yet but I did for the first time at the weekend. The place where one inserts the bottles and cans is at my eye level. The machines are too high for wheelchair users to reach either where one inserts the bottles or cans or to reach the receipt for what they have put in. There are also no Braille markings or raised areas on the logo to make them readable for blind people or people with visual impairments. Many people who do not have access to transport, have mobility issues and order their shopping online and have it delivered are being charged 15 cent or 25 cent, the same as the rest of us, but they cannot return the items to retrieve their deposit. To quote an advocate, the newly introduced deposit return scheme is effectively a "stealth tax” for people with disabilities who are unable to return the containers.
How can an online shopper with a disability who is unable to get to one of the shops equipped with the machines recoup the additional expense? One of the people who has engaged with me on this topic told me there is a boil water notice in place for the last nine months where she lives. She has no option but to buy bottled water. She will now pay 25 cent extra per bottle with no way of recouping that. The Minister says the only people who will pay more are those who will not bring back the bottles but there was no thought for those who cannot bring back the bottles. Anyone with a disability who does not drive or who is not able to bring their bottles or cans back will be charged and yet not be able to recoup the money. Setting up an accessibility consultation group to review issues such as these is not good enough. This shows there was a complete lack of consultation with disabled people's organisations or disabled individuals prior to the launch of the scheme.
If there was, it was simply a box-ticking exercise and the concerns of the DPOs and disabled individuals were simply ignored.
In 2018, Greenpeace, the environmental NGO, stated, "As we move to rid our oceans, beaches, and parks of unnecessary single-use plastics, disabled people shouldn't be used as a scapegoat by large corporations or governments who are unwilling to push suppliers and manufacturers to produce a better solution." On Committee Stage of the Circular Economy, Waste Management (Amendment) and Minerals Development (Amendment) Bill 2022, the Minister did not accept an amendment that would have allowed the Minister to make regulations excluding an environmental levy charge on customers for certain single-use items where those items are required by that person due to a disability. The Minister stated that the circular economy strategy was significantly amended in the Dáil and now included a specific requirement on the Minister to take the national disability inclusion strategy and the roadmap for social inclusion into account when making the circular economy strategy. However, he obviously did not take them into account. It is a pity that one of the Ministers from the Department is not here. I know they cannot be and I thank the Minister of State for being here to take the question. I want to know how the Minister is going to address these issues.
11:25 pm
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate Deputy Tully raising this important issue on the practicality of the new return scheme and how it will work for everybody, and where there are difficulties, how they will be addressed and fixed. This scheme has obviously been in development for a number of years. To inform the design of the scheme, the Department undertook two public consultations in 2020 and 2021 on how it should operate. Since its appointment as the DRS operator in July 2022, Re-Turn has consulted widely with stakeholders to help prepare for the introduction of the deposit return scheme. We are obliged under the single-use plastics directive to recycle 90% of our plastic bottles by 2029, so we have a practical problem about how we are going to do that.
It is a national infrastructure project, which operates primarily on a return to retail model, but the Deputy highlights the issue of how you are supposed to manage this if you have received them by delivery. That is quite a practical example. Retailers are required to charge customers a deposit for the bottle sold, and to take back empty containers and refund the deposit to customers, as the Deputy well knows. Retailers are also required to ensure the take-back facility they provide is accessible for anybody wishing to return empty containers. I understand Re-Turn continues to engage widely with all stakeholders and has committed to reviewing accessibility practices concerning the needs of consumers. This is an early problem that has been highlighted and that I will certainly highlight to my ministerial and constituency colleague, Deputy Ossian Smyth, to get a further answer. However, I understand the review being conducted includes working with the National Disability Authority. The authority is supporting Re-Turn on the establishment of a consultative group to ensure the concerns of all parties, in particular those who have identified difficulties accessing the deposit return scheme and in returning bottle and cans, are heard and addressed. I hope that will be as soon as may be. I understand Re-Turn intends to convene the first meeting of this forum in the second half of March, in the next number of weeks. It has invited a number of disability organisations to assist in a review of the scheme's infrastructure. I hope the Deputy will also have an opportunity to contribute to that in some way.
The deposit return scheme represents one of the biggest efforts at changing consumer behaviour in some decades. Inclusivity is essential if it is going to work. An extensive national communications campaign is under way to ensure every member of the public is aware of and understands what DRS is and how it operates. I am told individuals who have difficulties returning bottles and cans to their local retailer should contact Re-Turn directly and it will work with the local retail community to find a solution that works for all involved. Re-Turn is committed to ensuring locations are accessible, but it will need feedback from people like Deputy Tully, constituency TDs and me to highlight where there are practical issues, as there will be with the roll-out of any new scheme like this. In answer to the Deputy's question, I have not tried to return anything yet, but now that we have discussed it tonight, I definitely will tomorrow.
Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There are two parts here. There are people who cannot, due to mobility or lack of transport or due to a disability or age, return what they have bought online, and there are the machines themselves. One suggestion is a scheme worked out with the shop that delivers to incorporate a collection where a receipt could be issued. When they come next time to deliver the shopping, they can collect and give a receipt.
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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It seems obvious.
Pauline Tully (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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They can use that as a coupon online on their next shop. Another suggestion was that a register of those who cannot return their bottles and cans could be drawn up, a regular collection organised, a receipt issued and the people would be able to submit that receipt to Revenue for reimbursement, similar to how receipts for petrol and diesel under the disabled driver and disabled passenger scheme are submitted and refunded. I think that one can be resolved by Re-Turn working with the various shops. There is precedent for these types of schemes in other European jurisdictions. I am told the scheme in Denmark has been operating successfully for 20 years, and it operates something like the Revenue return, where you submit your receipt and get your money back.
The machines being inaccessible is going to be more difficult to address, because the machines obviously cost a lot of money and are already in place. I do not know how many have been rolled out. I think it is approximately 2,000, but I am not sure of that figure. I am not sure if any of them are accessible. None of those I have seen locally are. They have to be addressed. It seems an awful waste of money that they were not made accessible to all from the start. I do not know if the company did proper consultation because that issue would have been raised with it. We had issues with ATMs that were too highly placed in the wall and it had to be made sure going forward they were all at a lower level to facilitate all users.
The Minister of State spoke about talking to Re-Turn. I know someone who contacted it, was not getting very far, asked to speak with someone in management, and was told that management does not engage with the public. I do not know if that is the right attitude either. The Ministers involved with this say we have to green-proof all our policies, and I absolutely agree with that, but I think our Ministers need to disability-proof their policies as well, going forward.
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy must forgive me that I do not have more detailed information on the consultation that took place in advance of this scheme being introduced. It would appear to me to be a totally obvious and natural thing to consult disability groups. That may have happened. I cannot answer regarding the number that are accessible, but there are more than 2,300 return points operational from 1 February. The vast majority of those are automated collection. There are almost 2,200 of them. Some retailers have opted for a manual, over-the-counter collection system.
In the roll-out of any new scheme, it is essential that feedback can be clearly delivered in some way and there is a forum for raising practical problems. Practical problems are to be expected, but it is how you react to them and address them that matters. I am sure its representatives are not staying up late to watch this tonight, but I do hope Re-Turn and its representatives see that there is an expectation by constituency TDs that where practical problems are raised, a mechanism is found to respond, identify, log them and that ways are found to solve them. We are going to try to change consumer behaviour to have people really engage in this. People buy their goods in different ways. Some get them by delivery without ever going near the shops. How are they going to engage? Rather than simply putting up the cost to change consumer behaviour, this scheme will have to respond to the needs of people and their behaviours and the habits. I thank the Deputy for raising this very practical question tonight. It is a very important part of our environmental policy and I am glad everyone supports it.