Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I thank the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, for her time. I am delighted to bring forward the Bill to Second Stage. It is almost a year to the day since I introduced it, and the past year has certainly been interesting for broadcasting. It has perhaps shown the need for the Bill and made the need for it even more pertinent.

The Bill is simple. It will take some of the responsibilities of the director of the National Archives and apply them to the director general of RTÉ. It is about ensuring we will have not only the publication of archives but also the finding aids and other materials relating to the archives in order that they will be easier to search and use. These finding aids do exist and are used internally at RTÉ every day by staff who use the excellent archives at the broadcaster. Another change the Bill proposes is to make RTÉ's archives freely available for personal research and academic use in line with the greater public interest. Currently, access is permitted on an ad hocbasis and it is usually at the behest of RTÉ, without a clear, formalised process.

I have met the people who manage the archives for RTÉ and I was very impressed by the diligent and hard work they do. Until the nineties, RTÉ was the only TV broadcaster in the country. It has a deep, rich archive and the staff are important custodians of a deep, rich cultural and social history of who we were as a country, who we are now and that journey we made. A lot has been written about the impact of RTÉ and its shows on Irish history and culture, and what I got from RTÉ was a great sense of the awareness of the importance of that archive as a national asset. It is about acknowledging that, trying to protect it and trying to expand it in order that everyone can benefit from access to it.

Many positive things are happening. A great deal of work is being done on a digitisation project, which is essential for the kind of thing I want to see but also for preserving that deep, rich, historical treasure that RTÉ holds. The question then has to be asked, however, even if we do digitise the entire archive, as to who is going to get to see this wonderful archive and who is going to get to use it. We get snippets of what is in there and RTÉ provides some curated access to its archives on its website, which are excellent, but it is about the purpose of creating this archive and who gets to see it.

Judging by the introduction of the deposit return scheme, we do not need to reinvent the wheel. We can look to other European countries and see what is working effectively. In the UK, there are transparent and accessible national archives through the BBC. Legislation requires the BBC to deposit the collection with the British Film Institute, which is then readily available for the public to view on site at the institute, and there is no reason we cannot implement a similar regime here. That takes the archive and makes it publicly accessible, which is ultimately what we want to do. I understand that similar processes are happening in the Netherlands and that similar good work is done in Switzerland to preserve archives.

Currently, as I said, there is limited access to the archive for those outside RTÉ, but since introducing my Bill on First Stage, a lot of researchers have approached me and spoken about how it is very ad hoc, opaque and hard for anyone who is doing meaningful academic research to get into that archive and access it. That is a shame, because it means this positive work being done on digitisation, careful curation and preservation is not being seen and the rich historical archive is not being seen.

What the Bill will do is very simple and straightforward. It will put that obligation on RTÉ such that it will need to do this in a way that is open and public. As I said, recent times have been quite interesting for RTÉ and have underlined for many people the importance of, and their desire for, public service broadcasting.

It has underlined for many people the importance of, and their desire for, public service broadcasting. Ultimately, RTÉ is about public service broadcasting and public service, but that cannot just be in the moment, namely, at the point of broadcast, it must reach back and include the archive. We must acknowledge that part of RTÉ's public service is the good work it is doing at the minute in curation and preservation but we need to take that knowledge, that cultural, historical and social treasure, share it around and make it accessible. What this Bill does is very simply put an obligation on RTÉ to open up the archive. Where things are happening now in an ad hocway, they would have to become significantly more streamlined.

I accept that this Bill may not be as simple as I would like to suggest and that there are issues that need to be ironed out. Since publishing the Bill, I have been contacted by people whose parents, husbands or wives are in the archives because they featured in TV shows that were broadcast 30, 40 or 50 years ago. They have asked how this legislation will affect their rights as actors or copyright holders. They have asked if it will lead to rebroadcasting and what the consequences of that might be. These are issues that need to be worked through but because my focus is on academic access, personal and non-commercial use, they will be easier to tease out and work through. These are not insurmountable issues. Equally, I appreciate that there may be concerns around editorial control and material being produced in one context but used in a different one and that being unfair to those in the archive material itself. Again, I highlight the fact that this is about academic and personal use and personal research, which sidesteps those legitimate concerns because it is about legitimate research and non-commercial use. It is not about opening up a free-for-all or wild use of the archive.

This is a very simple, neat and straightforward Bill that puts a clear obligation on RTÉ to facilitate access to its archives. Those archives are excellently curated and preserved. RTÉ is investing in, and doing good work on, its archives, as it should do because they are an important cultural, social and historical asset to everyone. In the interests of supporting and building public service broadcasting and of RTÉ rebuilding the trust of the population, the national broadcaster needs to provide us all with access to the archives. This Bill places an obligation on RTÉ, as part of its public service remit, to do just that but to do it in a controlled way for personal and research use but not for commercial use. The archives, the finding aids and the materials around them can be a rich source for the country as a whole and a continuation of RTÉ's public service broadcasting obligations.

Catherine Martin (Dublin Rathdown, Green Party)
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I thank Deputy Costello for bringing forward this Bill. I welcome the opportunity to speak on it. The Government will not be opposing the Bill and will allow it to progress for detailed debate on Committee Stage. While the intention of the Bill is laudable, and I agree with the principle behind it, there are number of difficulties which may arise from application of the Bill if enacted. That said, this is a subject worthy of debate. Before outlining these difficulties, I reiterate that I agree with the intention behind the Bill.

I have stated on numerous occasions that public service broadcasting is vital to our democracy and to society as a whole. It informs, educates and entertains. Our public service broadcasters produce thousands of hours of valuable public service content, from news and current affairs to entertainment and sport to broadcasts of commemorations and festivals. In essence, this content encompasses moments of great historical significance to our country as a whole but to each individual person any of this public service content, no matter the subject, occasion or programme, could be considered historic and of great personal value.

RTÉ has been broadcasting for nearly 100 years and has in its possession thousands of hours of content, encompassing moments of both national and international significance. The archived content in possession of RTÉ, and all of the broadcasters in the State, is instrumental in the preservation of Ireland’s broadcasting heritage. Indeed, it is important in the recording of our national heritage and the growth of our State over the past century. I agree that it is vitally important that this content is not only preserved but that it is also made available for educational, research and entertainment purposes for generations to come.

There are some technical points in the wording of the Bill that would require some further consideration. The proposal to amend section 89(2) of the Broadcasting Act does not just refer to the director general of RTÉ, but also of TG4. The Bill, as drafted, may inadvertently place obligations on the director general of TG4. If the intention is for this Bill to also apply to all public service broadcasters - and we should look at the wider archiving of public service content - then this would need to be considered and addressed in a different manner. Also, as the section of the Act to which I refer outlines the obligations of the directors general of our public service broadcasters this may be overly prescriptive by placing an undue personal burden on them and potentially allow for legal challenges against them as opposed to the organisation in respect of archiving matters.

The Bill proposes that under the principal objects and powers of RTÉ as outlined in section 114 of the Act, the archives would be free for general, personal consumption. In principle I agree with this. However, legislation compelling the organisation to provide for archived content to be freely available upon request has the potential to place a significant burden on the organisation at a time when it is in the process of examining its cost base and how it will operate in the future in a cost-effective and sustainable manner.

I would like to take this opportunity to acknowledge the significant work that RTÉ is already undertaking to archive, index and catalogue its significant wealth of content. The RTÉ Archives website provides on a daily basis free, curated content of interest for Irish audiences which can be searched and enjoyed by the Irish public from anywhere in the world. There are a number of curated exhibitions on the site, for example, 1916 in 1966, featuring audio and visual content from the 1966 commemoration events, some of which had been made available in full for the first time. There are also more than 18,000 RTÉ news reports available featuring content from 1985 to 1990. These will ultimately encompass content up to 1999. RTÉ is currently undertaking a large-scale digitisation, indexing and cataloguing project in order to make its substantial collection of content available. Its current audio archiving project, encompassing content from the 1950s to 1999 is expected to be completed towards the end of this year. This consists of approximately 200,000 objects covering all genres of radio content, including drama, sports, music, Irish language news and more. Its video project consisting of approximately 250,000 video tapes from the 1980s to the mid-2000s is expected to commence shortly, with an estimated completion date of the end of 2027. Both are significantly complex projects that involve detailed, expert-led planning and significant financial investment, as well as expert archival and technical infrastructure and skills to ensure that the material is safely managed. It is also imperative that all projects adhere to best archiving practices, including the correct management and storage of the data. This is vital to ensure the longevity of the archived material. I refer to all of this just to give a flavour of the scale of the digitisation and archiving work that RTÉ is already undertaking.

In its strategic vision published last November, RTÉ committed to enhancing access to its substantial collections through new digital services and partnerships with cultural heritage bodies, which I welcome. A range of partnerships are already in place and RTÉ has worked with the National Library, the National Museum, the Department of Foreign Affairs, the Royal Irish Academy and other organisations on a number of initiatives to give sight to areas of its substantial archives. RTÉ also collaborates with the organisers of events such as the National Ploughing Championships and the Cork Film Festival, as well as the decade of centenaries. This highlights RTÉ's significant commitment to archiving, curating and making available material on an ongoing basis.

To introduce a statutory obligation to facilitate every ad hocarchival request has the potential to also divert resources from continuing the valuable work of safeguarding and preserving the important public service content and developing access for all interested parties. This is a very important point to remember. While accessing content is of the utmost importance, the content must first be preserved to ensure it is not lost forever. Diverting resources from this preservation process could be to the detriment of the collection in the long run.

The amendment to section 114, proposing that the archives “should be freely available”, also needs to be considered in the context of the potential implications with regard to questions of rights. A range of issues, including copyright legislation, data protection and contractual obligations, when considering full open access to archived material, or enhanced levels of open access to archived material, need to be fully considered. Protections may be needed regarding open access to the public to comply with the relevant legislation and contractual restrictions regarding repurposing, republishing and rebroadcasting the material. There is also the risk of misrepresentation with the increasing levels of access to Al and deepfake tools.

The independent sector, performers’ and contributors’ rights, as well as other third-party IP owners would have to be negotiated with both representative bodies and individual rights holders and owners to agree a level of access to information, recordings and other content to which RTÉ does not itself hold copyright and related rights. With regard to free access, at present fees for academic study requests and media studies courses are charged by RTÉ, but only at a for-cost basis, while commercial licensing fees are charged according to the intended use of the content. Should this content be provided for free, RTÉ would be required to absorb these costs and we would need to consider this carefully. While the intent of the Bill to allow anyone free access to archived content is admirable, it is imperative that it is compliant with relevant legislation and obligations. Of course, it is also of vital importance that performers, contributors and rights holders are not impacted monetarily by the enactment of the Bill, while also protecting against any monetary impact to RTÉ itself. As Minister for culture and arts as well as media, I am keenly aware of the potential impact any loss of these earnings may have on the industry and do not want to undermine the supports that are already in place for the sector.

There are a number of issues to be addressed by the Government which will have implications for the Broadcasting Act 2009 and for which I will be required to bring forward more substantive legislative amendments in due course. These include giving effect to a decision on the future funding of RTÉ and public service content. Legislative provisions regarding governance and accountability will also need to be considered in light of any recommendations which the expert advisory committee appointed by the Government last July to examine governance and culture at RTÉ, may bring forward. These reports are expected to be completed shortly and will form a key part of the continuing process of reform at RTÉ. Any additional legislative provisions required regarding archiving matters can be progressed through this legislation. In addition, a new archiving scheme, supported through the broadcasting fund, will be launched later this year by Coimisiún na Meán. This will provide funding and support for archiving projects for the wider sector, including RTÉ, and any projects it may have undertaken outside the above mentioned. For example, RTÉ made use of this scheme to undertake a number of projects including the acetate disc collection, including more than 5,300 recordings made for RTÉ radio between 1927 and the 1970s, published last year. It is also currently undertaking a project to preserve and curate the largest collection of Irish-language audio material in the State, incorporating all regions and dialects.

I would also like to reference the archiving initiatives of our other statutory public service broadcaster, TG4, which also has an extensive archiving project under way and its own dedicated archives website. More than 4,500 hours of content has already been digitised, indexed and catalogued, with support from the archiving scheme. In addition, a further 10,000 hours of content have been digitised but are yet to be indexed and catalogued, with thousands more hours to be archived. A special archiving project in conjunction with the Irish Traditional Music Association has also been delivered, digitising all Gradaim Ceoil content from 1998 to 2002 and making it available through its dedicated microsite. All of this must be considered in the round as we look to ensuring the preservation of public service content for future generations.

I agree with Deputy Costello that the archiving of public service content warrants discussion. However, as I have outlined, there are a number of important and ongoing archival projects which need to be completed so that we can ensure content is preserved and catalogued. This needs to be our priority, and then RTÉ can be required to address the most appropriate access platforms and systems. There also remain issues regarding intellectual property rights, contractual issues and royalty payments which would be impacted by free access. I welcome the recognition of the importance of public service media content for our future generations, but need to highlight that number of related matters which must be taken into account when considering the most appropriate legislative underpinning of our broadcasters’ legislative obligations.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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In principle, I support this Bill, as I do the access to many of the archives we hold throughout our nation. The more access people have to archival material, the more they understand the past. I have no problem with that. However, it is a big undertaking, and as the Minister just said, it is not as simple as the passage of this Bill. I hope it gets to Committee Stage and the pre-legislative stage - it goes backwards for a while - and that we can tease out some of the issues which the Minister highlighted and other issues which need greater concentration. There is the whole question of copyright and paying residual payments to actors and all of that. There are some areas where it is even more complicated than presented.

Some people of my age might remember "The Spike" or, if we go back further than that, "Hall's Pictorial Weekly". They cannot be reshown because there are copyright issues and residuals. "Strumpet City" is another series which was absolutely fabulous. However, unless you get a private showing, which has been arranged around the country, it cannot be shown because there is an issue about the rights. People had signed away their rights for one showing and not a second one. There is that type of material, and once you give public access to it, you end up addressing that. That is why when RTÉ or any institution gives public access, it has to be limited unless the underlying issues are addressed for this kind of access. They are only examples that I have heard of. I am not sure whether "Scrap Saturday" and stuff like that is copyrighted. I am only picking the productions that I, as a politician, would be interested in seeing back to see whether they live up to their time. They probably do not. They never do.

Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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Humour changes.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Looking back at "Reeling in the Years", sometimes snippets of it captures the imagination. A little sketch can capture a year's history very quickly.

Another aspect that was brought to mind when, as a committee, we visited Raidió na Gaeltachta and saw the huge archive there is that it is not the archive of the programmes, it is the archive of all the recordings of all those characters who played music and who sometimes sat and played three or four hours of music. It is all recorded. Maybe just ten minutes of it went out. The same would probably be true of RTÉ. Do we give full access to the unedited material? I do not know what is in it, possibly the unscripted programmes. All of that is interesting.

Regarding time, is it similar to the National Archive's 30-year rule? Anything in RTÉ is archived immediately so that it is accessible because there is now the player. What about the other material in the background that is kept by every institution? There has to be some type of protection around full access especially for those unguarded moments off air or whatever that could cause severe damage to somebody's reputation. While it was not intended, it might have been said in jest, but we do not have the context if all we hear is a recording. I am supportive in that respect.

The other aspect is that of selling. At the moment, RTÉ gains some type of income from selling the rights or sharing the rights with companies that create programmes.

4 o’clock

It is probably not much; I am not sure. The BBC makes quite a bit, but in the bigger scheme of things, it is probably not that much. If everything is put up free to access, the public might not be interested in looking at it if it is part of a programme, or they might be, but we have to look at whether that interferes with RTÉ's funding model.

Who is responsible? We have quite a number of national cultural institutions, some of which are specifically involved in archiving material. There is the National Library, the National Archives, National Photographic Archive, Irish Film Archive in the IFI and, across the road from this building, there is the Irish Traditional Music Archive. There are a number of competing interests. Do we want another one? RTÉ is already an archive. I am not denying that, but at some stage something becomes historical and there is a degree of funding and expertise and, as Deputy Costello said, a degree of love on the part of those involved. They love their project, are passionate about it and very good at it. Is it better to centralise the archive? As was mentioned, TG4 is doing its bit. I presume, some local radio stations also have archives. Is it better to centralise our digital and broadcasting archives in the one place? RTÉ might be the body to do it but that poses the other question, which we are dealing with, about the funding of RTÉ now and into the future. Is it part of the funding model that the State takes this on? How much will this cost? How much will the digitisation of Raidió na Gaeltachta cost? There are a lot of old cassette tapes and some reels. Raidió na Gaeltachta does not have the full funding. I heard the Minister mention that moneys will be available but it is a big undertaking for any of these organisations. We will have to have an idea of the cost, who will pay and out of what budget. Will it be RTÉ's budget or a separate cultural budget under this Department or a one-off budget to deal with the backlog? Ultimately, we will be starting from today and addressing an historical or legacy backlog.

In the future, an advantage of living in a digital age is that most of the stuff is already archivable or quickly archivable. You do not have to stand at a scanner scanning everything in so it can be read in a digital format, as happened during the decade of centenaries with the military pension records. Millions of pages of those records were scanned. I think it is the greatest number of hits on any archive in Ireland. People around the country were checking out their ancestry. It would be the same if it were announced that RTÉ's huge catalogue were to be available digitally. How can we stop people downloading it for themselves and using it without the permission of the owners, which are RTÉ and the original actors? The Minister mentioned the archiving of Irish language material. Only last week at the committee, Meta representatives said that if they had another 1,000 hours of Irish language material, it would be possible to have automatic subtitling based on new AI models that convert language via recognition of spoken word into subtitles. There can be benefits. All of that has to be worked out. I am not against the Bill.

On the decade of centenaries, I congratulate RTÉ on the huge amount of work and material it made available during the decade of centenaries, which again captured a lot of people's imaginations. Through newsreels, it pointed to different events that happened in that period. One set of newsreels which I do not think has been digitised, if anybody can find them, are the Gael Linn newsreels from the 1930s. Every single week in every cinema in Ireland, a newsreel was shown by Gael Linn. Digitising those newsreels would be exceptional because they were in Irish in a lot of cases and captured what happened throughout the country in the 1930s.

Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister and my boss, Deputy Martin, for her contribution, as well as the other Deputies, Deputy Costello, in particular, for their contributions. I am like Deputy Ó Snodaigh in that I remember "Hall's Pictorial Weekly", and this summer I visited north-west Cork with Deputy Michael Moynihan. We came to the town of Newmarket, which I had never been in before, but I remembered Frank Hall singing a song about Newmarket in County Cork. That is the sort of world-----

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I would not have thought the Minister of State would have been born at that time.

Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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It was shown after I was born but it was definitely recorded before I was born. It was shown into the eighties; there is no question about that. Some of us are destined for these types of careers from an early age.

There is no question of the importance of archives and preserving and conserving the wealth of content which public service broadcasters produce. It is the history of the State and our society in audio and audiovisual form and provides us with records of what was pertinent at various times in our history. You would be very hard pushed to find a piece of content that is not of significance to at least one person, family or organisation, to say nothing of the wider historical value of that content. So many great moments have been captured by our public service broadcaster. The commentary on Ireland's famous World Cup penalty shootout win over Romania is already available on the RTÉ archives website, as is Sonia O’Sullivan’s silver medal at the 2000 Olympics. The first-ever mention of sport on RTÉ dates from August 1926, in reference to the Irish rugby team taking on France the following January. I think this is also available in the archives. Without the valuable archiving work undertaken by our public service broadcasters, historic sporting moments such as these might not be available for us to watch right now or could potentially be lost to time. In looking ahead, it is also important to value the past. In the archives will be found thousands of hours of historic moments that our public service broadcasters have captured.

The Minister, Deputy Martin, highlighted some very important projects, which RTÉ is already working through and which are vital. We must first preserve and conserve the content. We have to ensure historic moments that are captured only on tape or acetate can be digitised and preserved. It is not only about the preservation but future-proofing the preservation. Having the right to access content is no good if the content is not preserved. As the Minister said, there are other challenges that need to be considered in this context.

The implications that this Bill would have regarding copyright legislation and contractual obligations must also be considered. It is crucial we do not impinge on the rights of the intellectual property holders or do anything that might negatively impact or void existing contractual arrangements. It would be improper if the expansion of access to archived content resulted in an impact on rights owners or on the income people get from their rights. Of course, those rights do not last forever either. As the Minister, Deputy Martin, has already laid out, RTÉ already provides free access to a considerable amount of archived content through its website. New content is published daily and specially curated collections are also available for free. The significant archiving and digitisation project that RTÉ has under way ensures available archiving resources are focused in such a manner that the maximum amount of content of wider public interest is preserved and made available for the benefit of all.

In short, the principle of this Bill is commendable, but there is a significant amount of work to be done with regard to archives and the preservation of content. It is perhaps better for us to make sure that these improvements are progressed further before we change the legislation relating to archives. At the very least, we need to make sure all these important issues are fully considered. I welcome the discussions that will ensue from the passing of this Bill to the next Stage of the legislative process. I thank everybody for their contributions.

Patrick Costello (Dublin South Central, Green Party)
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I welcome the Government's decision not to oppose the Bill. I welcome the commentary and feedback. For me, one of the clear things here is this is already done in many other countries. I appreciate what is being offered as concerns about the Bill.

I highlighted some of these. However, it would be a tragedy if we allowed them to become roadblocks. Other countries have overcome them. They are real issues and I do not mean to dismiss them but other countries have overcome them and built these kinds of archives. Other countries have done this with their public service broadcasting. It should be an inherent part of public service broadcasting. Perhaps, when writing these contracts, we should be thinking about 100 years ahead, but let us not let these legitimate concerns, which can be addressed, become roadblocks. As I have said, I look at what the BBC and the Dutch do. There is incredible work done there. I have no doubt that they too have faced these same questions about residuals, contractual clauses and so on.

While we do not have time for it now, there is a much wider conversation to be had about archives. Deputy Ó Snodaigh mentioned many archives. The Minister mentioned that this would include TG4. That is great. Let us get TG4 involved because it is an important public service broadcaster as well. The inclusion of TG4 would be a very positive thing. There is a much wider conversation to be had about archives. Should we centralise them? Are we doing enough? Are we investing properly in our archives? Are our National Archives getting the resources, support and manpower they need to do their job, which is very important? Are the Departments that are supposed to feed into the National Archives doing their job? Again, these are questions for a wider conversation.

On the financial burden, as I have said, a lot of this work is already being done. It is not that RTÉ is not doing this work. It is doing excellent work in this area. There is investment in digitisation. That is happening at the minute so I am not sure the Bill would result in a substantial extra financial burden. Current programming is made digitally and so can be very quickly worked into a digital archive. RTÉ knows the importance of this and is already investing in it. I am not sure the extra financial burden is really a barrier. There are much deeper conversations about the funding of public service broadcasting, as alluded to by the Minister of State, that we need to have first but I do not think the financial burden is a realistic roadblock. When we see other state broadcasters able to do this, we see that this cannot be used as a roadblock.

We are being presented with the idea that it is a question of access or conservation and that we cannot have both. That is giving up before we have even begun. Conservation is important but what use is an archive that nobody sees? What use is an archive if it is not accessible? We need to do both. To set it up as a question of access or conservation and to say that we cannot do both is to present a false dichotomy. Again, this should not be considered a roadblock.

On the access that is available now, since the publication of my Bill on First Stage, researchers have come out of the woodwork to express their frustration at trying to get access, the opaque nature of the system and, in many cases, the impossibility of getting that access. It is not as if we are providing access now. We really need to look at access to archives in general and access to this archive in particular.

There may be other ways of doing this. I appreciate that the Department may be cautious about creating an obligation, but all of us here could point to cases in different policy areas that show that if there is no obligation written down, what is required will just not get done. In many cases, where there is an obligation written done, it is still not done or delivered. The first step is acknowledging the importance of the archives and the good work that is already being done. Everyone in this Chamber has done that. The next step is to set that ambition to have an excellent archive that is widely accessible. I believe everyone here is in agreement on that. However, we need to put that in writing. If we do not put it in writing, there is a risk that ambition will not be achieved, that it will start to slip or that the importance of the archives will slip down because they do not comprise cutting-edge commercial material. That is the fundamental reason this needs to be in black letters, in law and in legislation.

Although very legitimate concerns have been raised, this is not the first time they have been raised. They have been successfully dealt with in other countries. Let us not see them as roadblocks. Let us work through them, make this happen and have ambition. We will only have that ambition if we put it in legislation.

I will make another point. I have very deliberately drawn up this Bill in such a way as to focus on personal and research access. I did so to expressly avoid the commercial issues. I am not trying to remove an important commercial revenue stream for RTÉ. I am trying to find a way through the very real issues of residuals and fair payment to actors for the work they have done. Those issues need to be addressed. This Bill only relates to academic research. I hope this can be teased out on Committee Stage but under the BBC's model in Britain, the material goes to one location. It is not necessarily accessible to anyone sitting in front of a computer. We will not, therefore, have the issue of an archive crashing as half the country tries to look up their granny on "The School Around The Corner" or "Hall's Pictorial Weekly". Instead, people will have to go to that place and will be able to access the archives there. That ensures protection, conservation, some of the editorial controls and standards as regards conservation, use, academic use and accessibility.

Again, let us learn from how others have done it. Let us not let these real concerns become roadblocks. Ultimately, as everyone here has said, we all share an ambition. I know that ambition is shared by the people in RTÉ. They are doing the hard work in that conservation and know better than any of us in this room the value and importance of what they hold. They have been investing time, money and energy in it. There must be recognition that this archive is incredibly important to us as a cultural, social and historical asset. We need to make it more available so that everyone can benefit from it going forward. That is an essential part of the public service remit of RTÉ. Now more than ever, we need to underline and support that public service remit.