Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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11. To ask the Taoiseach when he last met with church leaders in Ireland. [55133/23]

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Like public representatives generally, I meet church leaders informally from time to time in the course of attending official or public events. The most recent formal meeting between the Office of the Taoiseach and the church leaders took place on 15 April 2021, when the now Tánaiste met the leaders of all the Christian churches, including the Roman Catholic Church, the Church of Ireland, the Presbyterian Church, the Methodist Church and the Irish Council of Churches. I had the opportunity to meet the papal nuncio shortly before Christmas. I understand that discussions at these forums covered the contribution to peace-building and the work churches undertake on an ongoing basis at community level in Northern Ireland in particular.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Religious leaders of all faiths are working overtime in this country at the moment. They do enormous work in helping the vulnerable, members of the Travelling community, victims of human trafficking, those in prison, those who are homeless, those with addictions, those who are grieving and so on, and in terms of integration and working with many in our migrant communities. They must, however, be better supported by the Government. I always find it very interesting to watch many within the political establishment, who are so hostile to those of the Catholic faith in particular, rely heavily on those religious people to pick up the tab in areas of Government neglect.

I take the opportunity to pay tribute to a nun, a Columban sister whom I know in Navan. At the age of 94, Sr. Catherine Lillis received the Oireachtas Human Dignity Award from the Ceann Comhairle. She has worked in missionaries in Myanmar, Hong Kong and Egypt. Her hope, in her old age, is to extend the addiction treatment centre she founded in Navan so it can treat women as well as men. She is a mighty woman who has done wonders for the town of Navan. There is an awful lot that politicians in this House could learn from her. What steps is the Government taking to help and support religious leaders of all faiths in the great work they are doing throughout the country?

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Saint John of God Community Services is facing a funding crisis. The organisation has informed me that a meeting of the board is taking place this Thursday. If the €32 million deficit, which the HSE and the Government were supposed to address, and additional funding is not made available, it will not be able to provide services. We need to understand there are 8,000 children in its services. In my area, the organisation provides respite services, special schools, disability services, CAMHS and so on. There was a memorandum of understanding to deal with the funding problems. The money was supposed to have been allocated in the budget, was not allocated, and now we are facing an impending crisis whereby those services could cease in a very short while. Obviously, that cannot happen. I do not know if the Taoiseach knows anything about this, but it needs to be addressed as a matter of urgency because we are talking about a lot of children, a lot of families, a lot of vulnerable people and absolutely critical services that are currently underfunded.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, RISE)
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Did the issue of trans rights in education and healthcare come up in discussions with church leaders? The Catholic Primary School Management Association recently wrote to the Government, arguing that students should not be taught what it means to be transgender. It stated that it would be "counterproductive, generating unnecessary divisions" and, "more seriously, it might add to a growing psychological contagion amongst young and vulnerable children". It is bizarre language that seems to suggest that being trans is some sort of contagious disease. Did any of that came up in discussion with church leaders?

It relates to the question of trans healthcare, where Ireland is at the very bottom of the pile. A 2022 report by Transgender Europe rated Ireland's trans healthcare as worst in European Union. A big part of that is the failure to discuss with trans people and to bring their experience into the centre of the kind of informed consent model we need to develop. An example of that is the fact the new clinical lead for transgender services in Ireland, appointed by the HSE, appears to have been appointed without any consultation with any trans rights groups or the trans community about the role and the person who is going to fill the role - none of it. Does the Taoiseach agree that this is not the way to go about building an appropriate model for trans healthcare in this country?

Ruairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I also raise the issue of Saint John of God Community Services. It has been brought to my attention that 8,000 adults and children receive supports in everything from mental health services to, in particular, disability services from the organisation. We are talking about community services and residential care. My area is served by Saint John of God North East Services, which provides a significant amount of its services in County Louth. It provides services to around 400 people and, in some cases, such as in the likes of Drumcar, we are talking about citizens who have the highest of needs.

We have been in this situation previously. I think it was back in September 2020 that the threat was made by the organisation, without choice, to transfer services back to the HSE. I understand that a decision was made in April 2021 to carry out a sustainability and impact assessment. The results were published in October 2023, but we have not seen any action on it. The organisation claims it has insufficient funding to be able to deliver these very necessary services. It is talking about starting the process of handing responsibility back to the HSE on Thursday. That cannot possibly happen. I have asked Mr. Bernard O'Regan, head of disability services in the HSE, about it. I understand engagement is ongoing, but we really need to bring it to a conclusion. It is not fair on the citizens who need these services nor on their families. We cannot be caught in this round-the-garden type scenario, where organisations constantly need to threaten to get the necessary services for some of our neediest citizens.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputies for their questions. On Deputy Tóibín's question, I put on the record that the Government is very grateful for and recognises the work done by the religious in Ireland and all over the world. Given the scandals that have affected churches and religious bodies and given the existence of religious extremism in the world, sometimes that can be forgotten, but it should not be forgotten. We will all know of people - nuns, priests and other religious people - who have made an enormous contribution to society and have given their lives, essentially, to help others. We have see that in healthcare, education, housing, addiction services and poverty alleviation, for example. It is easily forgotten that when the State was founded 100 years ago, we did not have a Department of social welfare and we did not have a Department of Health. Most people at the time did not consider these things to be matters for the State. It was often left to voluntary and religious bodies to fill that gap. Of course, things have changed so much since then.

We intend to get the safe access zones Bill enacted this year. I have not had any engagement with religious leaders on it specifically, although the last meeting I participated in was in 2021 and that was quite some time ago at this stage. It certainly was not raised with me by the papal nuncio or by the Archbishop of Dublin.

I am going to have to seek an update from the Minister on Saint John of God. I am aware of some of the issues facing the organisation, but I am not fully up to date.

I am sure these things will be resolved by negotiation - they always are - but I will seek an update from the Minister on it today, given the Deputies have raised it.

In respect of education about trans people, trans people exist. They have always existed. Now they can be more open about it, which is a good thing, but we have a long way to go. It is my view that it is right that children should learn about people who are transgender and what that means. I would prefer it if children learned about these things from their teachers in their schools rather than in the schoolyard, and from their loving parents rather than the Internet. If we do not have education in schools, I think we are letting children down in that regard.

Trans healthcare is a new and evolving area of medicine. It is controversial and there is a lot of disagreement within the profession about what the right treatments, diagnoses and investigations should be. There is so much we do not know about it; we are still learning. It is very important that NGOs should be consulted but, as with any area of healthcare, it has to be based on science and not on politics. It has to be led by science. I say that as somebody who is an LGBT advocate and a member of the LGBT community. Really, healthcare has to be led by science, not by politics.