Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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76. To ask the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth if he will consider extending the DNA testing to family members who are cousins to identify remains at the mother and baby home in Tuam as a result of advancements in the science of DNA testing since the Bill was enacted; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [54569/23]

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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We discussed this before, but with the advances in the science of DNA testing, can we now allow for family members outside of the sons, daughters, grandsons and granddaughters to have their DNA sampled to try to identify their families within the mother and baby home in Tuam?

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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We have discussed this before. In October 2022, the Government made an order under the Institutional Burials Act 2022 to direct an intervention at the site of the former mother and baby institution in Tuam. The Government order specifies that the functions of the director of authorised intervention in Tuam include carrying out an identification programme to seek to establish familial links. In May, I appointed Mr. Daniel MacSweeney to the position of Tuam director.

The 2022 Act provides that the participants in an identification programme must satisfy the director that they are eligible family members. The Act defines an eligible family member as a person who has reasonable grounds to believe he or she is a child, parent, sibling, half sibling, grandparent, grandchild, aunt, uncle, niece or nephew, whether of the whole blood or the half blood, grandniece or grandnephew of the person who is buried at an intervention site. During the development of the legislation I significantly expanded the list of family members who can participate in an identification programme under the general scheme. The published Act takes full account of recommendations put forward during the pre-legislative scrutiny process and reflects a further expansion I made during the legislative process in line with scientific advice. We got advice that a wider group could be brought in, in a successful way, and we amended the legislation accordingly. The advice outlined a justification for the expansion of the list of eligible family members in line with technological developments but highlighted scientific challenges with the inclusion of cousins.

It should be noted that the legislation provides that family members, not limited to the participants in an identification programme, are provided with regular updates on developments at the site by the director. In addition, final arrangements for remains that are recovered but not identified will have regard to the wishes of persons who believe they have family members buried at the site.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I appreciate the Minister’s response. I understand he did amend and tried to be as flexible as possible within the advice given. However, there may have been further advances in science since the legislation was enacted and some people have been on to me and the Minister about having an opportunity to have their DNA and that of their cousins tested and used. I have met the director on site a few times and he is a very good appointee. If that possibility is there, could that opportunity be left open for people who are cousins to offer their DNA to the director? As science develops and progresses, that could be something that would identify some of these remains.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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The legislation sets out who can give DNA at the moment. Obviously legislation can be changed. If there is a clear scientific basis that we will be able to identify with at least a similar degree of precision, I have no stated objection against making that change. If something specific has changed in the past 12 months, I am happy to look at it. I am not sure if the Deputy has something specific he wants to draw to my attention. It was explained to me that by going down a generation and particularly by going out a generation, the chances are halved. Very quickly, by the time you get to cousins, the actual chance of a successful identification becomes very low. It is important we do not raise false hope. That is why I drew the line where the scientific advice was. We have a reasonable chance of providing an identification. That is why the line is drawn where it currently is.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I will pass on the information I have. I believe it is important that where families want to try to get an identification of a family member they believe might be there, it is important we facilitate that as best we can. Can cousins give their DNA sample to the director? He can then use those samples if he feels the science is there or if there are unidentified bodies that maybe could be identified, even with a smaller chance. We could perhaps consider that during the course of the excavation and what is going on there.

Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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I recently established an administrative scheme to allow for the collection of samples on a purely voluntary basis from elderly and vulnerable people in advance of the start of the statutory identification programme. Any person can contact the office of the director of authorised intervention for details. We thought that was important, recognising the age of some of the people involved, something the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, also mentioned to me, and that the process of the statutory scheme is being set up. I recognise the work Mr. MacSweeney is doing and the detailed work to facilitate all elements, including the identification scheme and the actual excavation and retrieval of the remains, all which is incredibly sensitive.

I am not saying "No" to any future amendment of the legislation, but it must be based on a clear scientific change. If we get information that shows the science has developed to allow precision for family members more distant from the person whose remains are in the site in Tuam, I am open to considering that.