Dáil debates
Thursday, 7 December 2023
Ceisteanna ar Sonraíodh Uain Dóibh - Priority Questions
Community Employment Schemes
10:40 am
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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92. To ask the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection if she will provide an update on the pay claim submitted by the rural social scheme and Tús supervisors to the Department for pay parity with community employment supervisors. [54239/23]
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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This might be a bit peculiar, but I may be able to offer some clarity on the previous question. Deputy Barry might be interested. My understanding is that people would still qualify through a means test for jobseeker's allowance and would be awarded whichever is the higher payment. If they were not disqualified by means test, which lower and middle-income workers would not be, they would qualify for jobseeker's allowance at the full amount because they are always awarded the higher amount. Am I right in saying that?
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I will let the Minister of State pursue that in a minute.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am trying to be helpful inasmuch as I can.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I am trying to be helpful too because there are people with questions.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I will ask my question. It relates to the rural social scheme. The issue of community employment supervisors has progressed, which is welcome. At that stage, the Minister of State said there was a need to look at all schemes, which would include the rural social scheme and Tús. There is currently a pay claim with the Department in respect of people on the rural social scheme, who are on 15% less than those on community employment schemes.
Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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If the Minister of State chooses to clarify the other matter, it is entirely up to him.
Joe O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Green Party)
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I will take Deputy Ó Laoghaire's question first, but I will address the other matter.
My Department operates a number of employment support schemes, including community employment, CE, Tús and the rural social scheme for long-term unemployed persons and low-income farmers. At the outset, I acknowledge the important role that Tús and RSS supervisors play in providing valuable opportunities to participants, and in supporting the delivery of key services to local communities throughout the country. It should be noted that Tús and RSS supervisors are employees of the individual implementing bodies, or local development companies, which are funded by the Department.
Earlier this year, union representatives and employers agreed, with the assistance of the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, and the support of Department officials, a wage increase of 5% for supervisors employed on Tús, RSS and CE schemes. Officials in my Department hold regular meetings with the supervisors' representative associations to discuss issues in relation to the delivery of all employment programmes. In recent meetings, the representatives raised the issue of pay parity for Tús and RSS supervisors with CE supervisors.
It is important to note that there are differences in the work undertaken by CE supervisors compared to that undertaken by Tús and RSS supervisors, relating, for example, to the preparation of individual learning plans. As a consequence, we would expect the service fees paid to the service providers to reflect this difference in scope. Subject to that consideration, the Department, in its role as funder of the programmes, will continue to work with the implementing bodies and staff representatives to try to address any concerns they may have. It is important to note that any changes to the fees paid, or the funding model, will require the approval of the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform.
On the previous question regarding pay-related benefit, the jobseeker's allowance option is still there.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Whichever payment is the higher can be claimed. That was my sense of it as well. I am sorry for that unusual intervention but it just occurred to me. I wanted to reassure myself.
I appreciate that the Minister of State has acknowledged, correctly, that the schemes are different in nature, although there are certain similarities. Having said that, I understand the rural social scheme and Tús supervisors have been in discussion with the Department and the Irish Local Development Network, ILDN, in the last three years through a tripartite forum. I believe the forum has agreed a work proposal that would broadly match increases in pay. I understand the principal officer dealing with the matter has presented the proposal to the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform for its consideration. While I would not say it has conceded in principle, the Department has at least a certain sympathy for this point. There is an understanding that pay parity would not be easy to achieve in one single claim but there is a need to bridge the gap in pay in a meaningful way. A meeting was due on 21 November but that date was pushed out. When will the next meeting take place?
10:50 am
Joe O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Green Party)
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The Deputy is right that the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform has a key role in this. The Deputy provided some detail. I am not sure some of it is correct in terms of what has been agreed. There is a willingness on our side to discuss the issue. I do not want to get into negotiations on the floor of the House on what is doable or not. We had to postpone the previously scheduled meeting but I expect the rescheduled meeting will take place before Christmas. That is my expectation and intention. It is important to reiterate that the roles are different. The roles of community employment supervisors, Tús supervisors and RSS supervisors are not exactly the same. In many respects, we treat them as one group and they do valuable community work and support people in their placements in a similar way but there are differences. That is key, and I underline that.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I accept that the roles are not the same. This is being dealt with as a separate line item. I apologise if I am misunderstanding the position. It is not a deliberate misrepresentation but may be a misunderstanding. Perhaps that can be clarified. Before I come back to that issue, I first want to address the point that this is very important work regardless of slight differences or whatever. It is invaluable in providing community supports in every county in the State. People who are close to the rural social scheme and Tús are concerned they will lose or be unable to attract staff. That is also a challenge with community employment.
I wish to clarify this. Am I to understand that even if the two Departments are not necessarily on the same page, the Department of Social Protection has advanced some sort of document or proposal to the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform for its consideration? Notwithstanding whether the latter is in agreement with that or not, has some sort of document been communicated? Will the Minister of State clarify that? When is the meeting that was due on 21 November likely to take place?
Joe O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Green Party)
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I have done specific work to ensure community employment supervisors got their pension and gratuity over the last couple of years and, in particular, on the 5% across-the-board pay increases for CE, Tús and RSS supervisors. We now have this additional ask. While it is not without merit, we have to look at it carefully. We are amenable to discussing and talking.
The Deputy asked a specific question about when the next meeting will be held. I do not know. That is the honest answer but my understanding is that it will happen before Christmas. I do not want to nail that down as a certainty. It depends on people's availability between now and Christmas. That is the main issue blocking it. There is no reticence on our part about discussing the matter further.
To my knowledge, a document has not gone to the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform but there certainly has been communication. Obviously, in any negotiations around pay and conditions that Department holds the purse strings.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister of State.