Dáil debates

Tuesday, 21 November 2023

Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions

Defence Forces

9:50 pm

Photo of Violet-Anne WynneViolet-Anne Wynne (Clare, Independent)
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49. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence if he accepts that the equating of “trips, slips, and falls” with rape and abuse was an unfortunate error in his letter to victims of the Defence Forces who have been subjected to such horrendous crimes; if he will recall and reissue the letter; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [50910/23]

Photo of Violet-Anne WynneViolet-Anne Wynne (Clare, Independent)
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52. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence if he will replace the term "complaints" with "incidents of abuse" in the terms of reference of the statutory inquiry into abuse in the Defence Forces; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [50911/23]

Photo of Violet-Anne WynneViolet-Anne Wynne (Clare, Independent)
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Does the Tánaiste accept that his equating of "trips, slips and falls" with rape and abuse was an unfortunate error in his letter to members of the Defence Forces who have been subjected to such horrendous crimes? Will he recall and reissue the letter and make a statement on the matter?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 49 and 52 together.

First, no such equation was ever made. The report of the independent review group, IRG, established to examine dignity and equality issues in the Defence Forces was published on 28 March. The Government agreed to progress the recommendations contained in the report, which included the establishment of a statutory inquiry to identify systemic failures, if any, in the complaints system to ensure accountability and transparency. Draft terms of reference were prepared in consultation with the Attorney General and shared with a wide variety of interested parties.

In July, I obtained the approval of the Government to establish a judge-led tribunal of inquiry, pursuant to the provisions of the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act 1921, as amended, to examine the effectiveness of the complaints processes in the Defence Forces and to address workplace issues relating to discrimination, bullying, harassment, sexual harassment and sexual misconduct. I have continued to engage with a range of stakeholders to this process.

I have met the Women of Honour and their legal representatives on a number of occasions, most recently on 27 September last. Many of the additional terms and edits sought by the Women of Honour and their legal team, including their request for a statutory public inquiry, have been included in the draft terms of reference for the tribunal. I explained at these meetings that the terms of reference must be clearly defined to ensure the tribunal will be capable of completing the task assigned to it within a reasonable timeframe. I also outlined that certain terms sought for inclusion will be examined in separate, non-statutory investigations, in line with the recommendations in the IRG report.

In respect of my letter of 2 November last to the legal representatives of the Women of Honour, the content reflected what was said at a recent meeting with the group and clarified the breadth of inquiry that could ensue if the terms of reference were to expressly include health and safety legislation. I also pointed out, however, that the tribunal will have regard to any and all relevant legislative provisions, which include the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act 2005, and this will be at the discretion of the judge who will be appointed as chair of the tribunal. Revised draft terms of reference have been shared with individuals and groups who have been in contact with my office. I also intend to meet the Women of Honour group before I revert to the Government in the coming weeks to seek approval for the terms of reference and for the appointment of a judge to chair the tribunal.

No equation at all was made between sexual assault and trips and falls. I was surprised by the question and do not in any way feel it was a fair reflection of what transpired or of my views. The whole purpose of the tribunal is to prioritise sexual assault and sexual misconduct, and the manner in which the complaints were processed dealt with such misconduct. It was about giving that the overarching priority. That was the context.

Photo of Violet-Anne WynneViolet-Anne Wynne (Clare, Independent)
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I thank the Tánaiste and appreciate the information he provided in his response. It has been said previously in the Chamber that the Women of Honour are reasonable people. I have met representatives of the group and they felt the Tánaiste's choice of words was wrong. He mentioned he felt their reaction was unfair, but I respectfully request he reflect on his use of language in this instance and in the future. With the greatest respect, the magnitude of this issue commands the utmost sensitivity. While I am not saying the Tánaiste equated the two issues, that is the way it was perceived. I saw the letter myself, and the words "trips, slips and falls" really grabbed my attention.

The strong voices of the Women of Honour should not be taken for granted and speaking out is not something that gets easier. In fact, the opposite is true. They would not request action such as a recall and reissue without good reason.

It has significant relevance to them and really and, truly, that is all that matters.

10:00 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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This was discussed at the meeting before any letter was sent out. It was discussed by the Attorney General with the legal advisers to the Women of Honour. Reading it, the intent is quite obvious. If we include every aspect of the health and safety Act as a term of reference that is a problem due to the length of time the tribunal would subsequently take and it is by including that one would be equating things, it is arguable. We are saying we should not equate the two. We must prioritise what the inquiry should inquire into in order to ensure that we get to the core of the issues raised by the Women of Honour, by others and by the independent review group. Then the judge will have discretion to ensure matters that are core to the issues that have been raised are dealt with. That is legal parlance and had transferred, I understand, between the Attorney General and the legal advisers when they were going through various aspects and various amendments that were coming forward.

Photo of Violet-Anne WynneViolet-Anne Wynne (Clare, Independent)
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I thank the Tánaiste. The mention of time and there being too much of it almost feels as if there is a sentiment to the effect that maybe time is being wasted. That is obviously not the Tánaiste's intention, but for victims to hear we do not want too much time to go into such an inquiry is not really bringing about their priorities. It has felt to them that their concerns are not being heeded. It is encouraging to know the Tánaiste is continuing to engage with them and he will meet them again on Wednesday.

The Tánaiste referred to the inclusion of incidents of abuse like those I mentioned leading to a lengthy inquiry. I would hate to see the conclusion of such a significant inquiry, which was only really brought about because of the voices of the Women of Honour, leave out or exclude any victims. That would be a great mistake to make.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Deputy Durkan wants to come before the Tánaiste replies.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an Leas-Cheann Comhairle. Following the publication of the report and the investigation into the allegations of sexual abuse and harassment within the Defence Forces, have there been any other incidents reported?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The intention of the terms of reference is not to exclude anybody. People will be able to come forward, and we encourage that. On the time issue, experience tells us it is a problem if the terms of reference are not correctly drawn. Bearing in mind the need for closure for victims and survivors and indeed personnel within the Defence Forces right now, it is an important issue because we know previous inquiries have gone on much longer than anybody in the House anticipated. The most recent example is the Siteserv inquiry. We were meant to do ten modules there; we only ever did one and it took, I think, between five and seven years. A range of inquiries have gone on for such a lengthy duration that those who originally wanted them feel very cheated by the length of time it takes and do not feel their issues have been raised. There is a balance to be struck; that is all. It is about prioritising victims. I was Taoiseach for two and a half years and all I was asked to do in the context of any inquiries was to extend the duration. That is not in the interests of those who want answers, want reform and want things to change for the better.

To reply to Deputy Durkan, there have been other incidents and I said to the Deputy earlier - I am sorry, there have been allegations - but one of the more positive outcomes has been this direct referral to An Garda Síochána straight away. These issues must now be dealt with by the civil courts and the Garda from here onwards.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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We are almost at the end. There is not enough time for the next question.

Photo of Matt CarthyMatt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I will let Deputy Ó Murchú ask his question.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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We will jump to Deputy Ó Murchú's question. He will not have the full time.

Questions Nos. 50, 51, 55 and 56 taken with Written Answers.