Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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37. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence if he will include the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act 2005 in the terms of reference for the tribunal of inquiry arising from abuses allegations brought to public attention by a group (details supplied); and if any other amendments to the terms of reference will be made arising from engagements with the group and another group. [50880/23]

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Tánaiste intend to include the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act in the terms of reference for the tribunal of inquiry arising from abuse allegations brought to attention primarily by the Women of Honour group, which has sought for this Act to be included in the terms of reference? Does he plan to bring other amendments to the terms of reference arising from engagements with the Women of Honour group and the Canary Movement?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The report of the independent review group, IRG, established to examine dignity and equality issues in the Defence Forces was published on 28 March last. The Government agreed to progress the recommendations contained in the report, which include the establishment of a statutory inquiry to identify systemic failures, if any, in the complaints system, in order to ensure accountability and transparency. Draft terms of reference were prepared in consultation with the Attorney General and shared with a wide variety of interested parties. In July, I obtained the approval of the Government to establish a judge-led tribunal of inquiry, pursuant to the provisions of the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act 1921, as amended, to examine the effectiveness of the complaints processes in the Defence Forces and to address workplace issues relating to discrimination, bullying, harassment, sexual harassment and sexual assault and misconduct.

I have continued to engage with a range of stakeholders in this process. I have accepted many of the additional terms, amendments and edits, especially those sought by the Women of Honour and their legal team, including their request for a statutory public inquiry. It should be noted that certain terms sought for inclusion are to be examined in separate, non-statutory investigations in line with the recommendations in the IRG report.

The Health and Safety Authority, HSA, is the statutory body responsible for matters relating to occupational health and safety. A copy of the IRG Report was circulated to the HSA following publication earlier this year. I welcome the inspection of the Defence Forces arising from matters in the IRG report, which the HSA recently advised it proposes to undertake.

The tribunal is being established to identify systemic failures, if any, in the complaints processes in the Defence Forces. The terms of reference must be clearly defined to ensure that the tribunal is capable of completing the task assigned to it within a reasonable timeframe. The tribunal will have regard to any and all relevant legislative provisions and this will be at the discretion of the judge who is appointed as chair of the tribunal. Revised terms of reference have been shared with individuals and groups who have been in contact with my office. I hope to meet with the Women of Honour group again this week before I revert to the Government . I intend to revert to the Government shortly to seek approval for the terms of reference and for the appointment of a judge to chair the tribunal.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Our only purpose in raising these questions is that we want to get this absolutely right. I welcomed the proposal to establish a tribunal of inquiry to investigate the allegations highlighted by the Women of Honour group.

It should be noted that we would not be having a tribunal of inquiry or any form of inquiry were it not for the Women of Honour bringing their stories into the public, telling their own personal stories in some instances, and highlighting them in a way that was very stark and demanded a public response. I have to say that it would be inconceivable if the Tánaiste were to bring a proposal to Government that did not have the full endorsement of that group. Therefore, I welcome the fact that he is meeting them on Thursday. I have met with them myself. I have found the Women of Honour to be very reasonable and straightforward in terms of what they want at the end of the day. I appeal to the Tánaiste to ensure that when he sits down on Thursday with the Women of Honour, he will not get up until an agreement is reached so that when he brings a proposal to Government, it is something that everyone in this House and in the public can support.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have met with the Women of Honour group on a number of occasions, and with their legal advisers, who are experienced in the matter of tribunals and inquiries going back over a long period of time. I think we have been very fair. I have been very clear, honest and straightforward in relation to this. I think the recommendation of the independent review group, IRG, was to have a statutory inquiry, and we have followed through on that. There were debates and reflection as to what model would be the best model. The Women of Honour were anxious that there would be a public inquiry in line with the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act 1921. The Government has agreed to that. The terms of reference are comprehensive. I have had experience of tribunals in the past. It is important that the tribunal also exists for every member of the Defence Forces. There are many stakeholders here. It cannot go on for five or ten years. These are serious issues that everyone in the House has a responsibility to take on board, to be fair.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am not aware of anyone in this House who is looking for a tribunal process that will go on for five or ten years.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Exactly.

Matt Carthy (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What I have said is that at the first hurdle, we need to ensure it has full public confidence. I do not believe that public confidence will be easily built if the organisation that first outlined these allegations, made the charges and highlighted some of the deficiencies that I think everybody has accepted existed in terms of the policies and procedures that were in place is not fit to say it is something that it endorses or believes has the capacity to make a set of findings that will address the issues that it brought to the fore in the first place. It would be a shame as much as anything else. I will not make a political charge. However, I think it would be a real shame if we got to that point.

What I am asking the Tánaiste to do is to ensure that does not happen. We know the way to ensure that does not happen is to go through each of the issues, point by point, sitting around the table. The Tánaiste said he is going to meet the group on Thursday. What I have asked is whether he will commit to reach agreement with them and not bring forward recommendations to Government that do have that agreement.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Before the Tánaiste comes back in, there are two more contributors.

Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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This is a very important question for the Women of Honour. As the Tánaiste is aware, they were taken aback by what they felt was a trivialising of their request and the assertion that its inclusion in the terms of reference would make the process in question unworkable. I believe the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act is extremely important in our Defence Forces because a disparity and polarity of power exists between superior officers and junior members of the Defence Forces reporting to them. There is a huge imbalance of power and safety.

It is a matter of bodily integrity for women and men, because physical intrusion is never just physical. It goes to a person's core as well. I think it is really important that it is included in the terms of reference and that the Tánaiste listens to the Women of Honour on Thursday. He said that these things can take years. Let us do it right from the beginning. I believe the IRG recommended that the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act would also feature in the terms of reference. I hope that the Tánaiste will think long and hard and go with this request.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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First of all, there have been exhaustive discussions. We have had a number of meetings and correspondence with the Women of Honour and other groups. The Attorney General has met with the legal advisers to Women of Honour. We have gone through a lot of stuff in detail. The fundamental recommendation of the IRG has been met by the draft terms of reference and we have sought to go through all of the issues. The discretion of the judge is always there. I was surprised - and Deputy Cronin made the point - with the public statement that was issued following the last letter that I wrote to the Women of Honour, because I do not think it was fair. There was some assertion that we were equating trips and falls with sexual assault, which is actually the opposite of what were saying. To prioritise sexual harassment and bullying, it needs to be investigated. Dignity needs to be investigated. The Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act covers everything in the workplace. If we put that specifically in the terms of reference, it will have implications for the length of time of the tribunal. There is no point in saying otherwise. We have to be honest about that. We have gone through this in detail and we will go through it again. We will have a further meeting. Likewise, we discussed that issue as well.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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We are way over time.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry.