Dáil debates
Thursday, 12 October 2023
Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate
Child Abuse
6:15 pm
Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, Deputy Roderic O'Gorman, for coming in. I know we have discussed this issue. I would like to welcome Mick Finnegan into the Gallery. Mick has been a tireless advocate for survivors of sexual abuse in St. John Ambulance Ireland and he has been hugely affected, like all survivors have been. He has devoted his life to getting some sort of answers and consequences for those who abused him and many others. I would like to acknowledge Mick's presence here.
I recently saw some script from Joe Mooney, who said:
It is to Ireland's shame that survivors must exhaust themselves from pleading to be heard. It still appears child protection is everybody's business until it is not.
That resonated with me, and I think it resonates with most people and certainly survivors. I have to ask, does the Minister feel that serious reforms have been made? There does not appear to be any. Nothing is happening, and everything seems to be quiet. Survivors are still waiting for answers. There are no consequences for those who carried out these disgusting acts. Six months have passed now and the board of St. John Ambulance Ireland remains largely the same. Judge Dr. Geoffrey Shannon's recommendations still have not been implemented. The two long-standing board members who were meant to resign still have not. One left, and the other is now the interim chair. That seems like another kick in the teeth for survivors.
I was talking to Mick about this last week, and we were saying there seems to be a disparity within our society regarding people from socio-economically deprived and disadvantaged areas in that they are not worthy of the same support from the State, despite crying out and asking for help. There is that real sense, when survivors start looking at other examples of abuse and how it was treated, that they feel if they were from a different class, they would be treated differently. It is an important thing, and it is important we hear those concerns of survivors.
All survivors want is real accountability, and every member that was a senior officer on the board to step down and let the good, honest and hard-working volunteers take over, and let them continue to do the good work that the organisation has done in this country for well over 100 years. Only then will survivors accept and acknowledge that accountability has taken place. The survivors and I do not feel that there has been any accountability. There have been no consequences for the perpetrators, the organisation and the culture within that organisation. Despite the recent resignation, there remains people on the board of St. John Ambulance Ireland who were not only aware of what was going on, but had even adapted lyrics of popular songs at the time to mock the children being abused in the old Kilmainham ambulance division in Dolphin's Barn.
Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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I thank the Deputy for his query, and I am glad we are joined by survivors in the Gallery tonight.
The board of St. John Ambulance Ireland commissioned an independent review and appointed Judge Dr. Geoffrey Shannon, with the assistance of Ms Hilary Coveney and Dr. Cian Ó Conchubhair, to carry out the review into the handling of complaints of historical sexual abuse of members under 18 years of age. As the Deputy knows, the review was commissioned at my urging to the board of St. John Ambulance Ireland.
St. John Ambulance Ireland published the report into the handling of past complaints of abuse in the organisation on 16 March of this year. A number of recommendations were made by Dr. Shannon regarding improving overall child protection and safeguarding practices in the organisation, including the recruiting of a new, full-time national safeguarding lead. St. John Ambulance Ireland also published a response document on 16 March 2023. The response document outlined the St. John Ambulance Ireland action plan in respect of implementing each of Dr. Shannon’s recommendations. A quarterly update to this response plan was also published by St. John Ambulance Ireland in July of this year.
Officials from my Department have engaged with St. John Ambulance Ireland around assurances regarding current child protection and vetting practices in the organisation. Department officials have engaged with Tusla and the commissioners of St. John Ambulance Ireland to ensure that appropriate supports were in place for survivors of abuse on the publication of the report, including counselling supports to survivors and a helpline operated by Tusla. They have also engaged with St. John Ambulance Ireland and Tusla to ensure that all appropriate actions were taken in response to the findings of the review report, with a particular emphasis on seeking assurances that there is no unvetted member working with minors or cadets within the organisation.
St. John Ambulance Ireland has advised the Department of the following for survivors accessing counselling. Any survivor can select their own counsellor from the list of approved counselling providers employed by St. John Ambulance Ireland, and it is the counsellor who then engages with St. John Ambulance Ireland to set up the payment arrangements.
7 o’clock
St. John Ambulance Ireland advised that the counselling support for survivors of abuse was deliberately designed in this manner so no survivor would have to engage directly with SJAI if they did not wish to.
SJAI has commenced the recruitment process for the new, full-time national safeguarding lead. The process has been progressing since the close of applications in late September. The lead will work with SJAI volunteers who operate the child protection policy and report directly to the board of SJAI.
SJAI has advised the Department that at the end of June, two of their longest-serving board members, who had agreed to stay in their roles to assist with the delivery of the independent safeguarding report and the preparation of plans for implementing Dr. Shannon's recommendations and who included the independent chairman, had stepped down. A new interim chairman has been appointed and the board of SJAI has a process in place to replace the directors who have resigned.
I am committed to upholding the best interests of children in all situations. I note the progress made by SJAI in implementing the recommendations of the report into historical abuse and the ongoing co-operation of SJAI with the Department in this regard. I look forward to hearing about the appointment of the national safeguarding lead. Any concerns about child abuse relating to SJAI or other services, organisations or individuals should, of course, be referred to Tusla and An Garda Síochána at the earliest opportunity.
6:25 pm
Chris Andrews (Dublin Bay South, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Minister believe serious reform has happened in SJAI? That is a critical point. He mentioned counselling. My understanding is that only one survivor has engaged in the process to access counselling. Rather than waiting for survivors to engage in the process, the Government, Department and SJAI should be proactive and deal with the individuals.
The Minister mentioned that he was establishing an institutional abuse working group to examine the report of Dr. Shannon. Has it been established? If so, who sits on it and what is its remit? When will it report, and will the report be published? Mick Finnegan has been strongly advocating to obtain basic information. There are many others who have not been able to come forward. From a trauma-informed perspective, the State needs to move and be proactive in engaging with survivors.
Does the Minister believe it is appropriate that the current board remains in situgiven the findings of the report? Does he believe serious reforms have been made?
Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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I have always been available to survivors of abuse in this organisation. I have engaged with Mick Finnegan on several occasions and remain open to doing so. I just wanted to put that on the record because the Deputy is right that it is important for the State to engage in this process.
The report was published and Dr. Shannon set out a range of recommendations. It is now six months since the report's publication. We have received one update regarding the recommendations. All of them have not been implemented. I do not know whether it is reasonable to think everything could be done in six months but it is important that we keep the pressure on to ensure all the recommendations are implemented. That is why, after some engagement with survivors over the summer, I wrote to SJAI. I was very surprised to hear the board members had not stepped down, so I wrote. The board members have now stepped down.
I was particularly concerned about what I felt was the lack of speed in the appointment of the national safeguarding lead. I am glad to know the process is under way. The appointment of the individual will give me significantly enhanced reassurance because, fundamentally, a failure to implement existing child safeguarding policies was central to what allowed sexual abuse to take place within the organisation. Having the role in place is essential in assuring me there has been change in the organisation.
The working group is meeting. It is primarily made up of representatives of my Department and Tusla. It will consider the report of Dr. Shannon but also report on institutional abuse or organisational abuse in other areas of Ireland. There are a couple of cases in the UK, including the Rochdale case, where state actors failed. The group will be taking what can be learned from these and ascertaining how we can apply it in the Irish context.