Dáil debates
Thursday, 28 September 2023
Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions
Departmental Expenditure
11:00 am
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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77. To ask the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment if he will provide details on the practice of virement within his Department; and provide specific detail of instances where funding was transferred from one fund to another in his Department, in each year since he took office. [41530/23]
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Politics 101 in Ireland is to launch a multimillion euro budget for a sector in society that is significantly suffering, accompanied with plenty of media and loads of photographs, and then make the application process for that money so tied up in red tape and bureaucracy that it is almost impossible for community groups or citizens who are in trouble to draw down the money. Funds are then siphoned from such projects and put into a pet project of the Government. This is, unfortunately, what is happening under the Department of the Minister, Deputy Ryan. Money that is earmarked for just transitions and the agricultural sector, which is suffering, are being siphoned off for pet projects of Green Party Ministers. Will the Minister of State ensure those who really need funding and are suffering in terms of just transition actually get the funding they need?
Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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Annual Exchequer funding provided by my Department is allocated to various programmes and subheads in the Revised Estimates and approved by Dáil Éireann. For practical reasons, as set out in public financial procedures, there are two arrangements to vary the allocations between subheads. These are the passing of a technical Supplementary Estimate by Dáil Éireann or a process called virement, which is usually used for lower value transfers and requires the prior approval of the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform.
The total amount transferred in my Department through the virement process in the three years 2020 to 2022 was €3 million in capital and €2.5 million in current funding. These virements represent 0.15% of my Department's total budget allocation over the three-year period. In all cases, prior approval was obtained from the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform before proceeding with the transfer of funds. The detailed information requested regarding funds vired between different subheads in my Department will be provided to the Deputy directly.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Information Aontú received from the Department in December shows that the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications took €1.5 million that was intended to ensure there was a just transition and used it to support the climate finance activities of the United Nations instead. While those figures may seem small fry to the Minister of State, in reality they are massive figures for those who are suffering, in particular those in the midlands and other regional and rural areas around the country.
In the same month, the Minister took a €500,000 underspend from the communities retrofit scheme and put it into a media campaign called Reduce Your Use. It is clear to me that money which has been assigned for good purposes to help people is being redirected and siphoned off for pet projects that do not help to address the significant needs in communities around the country. Does the Minister of State not believe that has to change?
Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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I consider that a very serious, misleading and ludicrous accusation. To say that money is being siphoned from one project to a pet project is ridiculous. Some 99.85% of the budget was spent according to how it was primarily allocated. Some 0.15% of the budget was moved between different subheads. This is a small movement of money which happens when, for administrative reasons, money cannot be spent for whatever reason on any particular project.
In order to transfer money from one budget to another, the Minister for Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform has to be contacted and approve the transfer. The Deputy is going far too far in suggesting that there is some kind of malice at play here. I really think it is beneath him to come out with that kind of thing.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Again, the Minister of State has to take this seriously. I have given him two financially factual elements of money being redirected by his Department. I will give him another one. Brexit Adjustment Reserve, BAR, funding was given by the European Union to mitigate the impacts of Brexit. It was for farmers and fishermen and fisherwomen across the country who have been decimated by Brexit and the policies of the Government with regards to rural and regional Ireland. The Government made an application for €150 million of that funding to be redirected to other uses. The use it focused on was the roll-out of climate measures.
BAR funding was designed to help people in agriculture who are in real difficulty, many of whom earn salaries lower than the average industrial wage. The Government created a system where money was not drawn down and then found another use for it which was not its initial desired use by the European Union. That is big money. It is factually true to call it ludicrous. To dismiss it dismisses the real needs of real farming communities around the country, which is not unusual in terms of the Green Party. I am sure the Acting Chairman would agree with me, if he had the chance.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Absolutely, but you would want-----
Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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I thank the Deputy. He referred to a sum of €150 million being transferred. The total amount of money transferred over three years was just over €5 million. I am not sure where the figure of €150 million is coming from. I wonder if he is looking at a different table. We are talking about-----
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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The Government-----
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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No across the room talk. I am sorry. Do not try that old trick that has been tried too often in this House, where you drag in the question and the answer and we have a conversation. The Minister to reply. That is it.
11:10 am
Ossian Smyth (Dún Laoghaire, Green Party)
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We are talking about 0.15% of the budget. We are not talking about €150 million. The total amount of money over three years is €5.5 million. It is being transferred for administrative reasons where it was not possible to complete all of the expenditure on one subhead of a project and, therefore, was moved to another subhead. I have seen the Deputy use this technique with other Departments. He has found a trick. He says, "Oh, you moved money from these guys and gave it to these guys" and he sees some malice there. I can see right through that. That is just rank populism. Everybody can see that.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Is €5 million from farmers rank populism?
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry-----
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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I am sorry to have to listen to it.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is abusing the House and he knows that.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Not at all.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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We will move on. We must back track as we have found the necessary authorisation for Question No. 73.