Patricia Ryan (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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I am eager to start this Dáil term by speaking to Sinn Féin's urgent and necessary motion on mortgage interest relief, and I thank my colleague, Deputy Doherty, for bringing it forward. We find ourselves at a critical juncture, where the cost-of-living crisis has reached new heights, leaving families struggling in a web of escalating costs. Families are burdened with soaring mortgage costs, exacerbated by ten ECB interest rate rises in 14 months. These hikes are costing people a fortune.

According to the Central Statistics Office, CSO, mortgage interest costs have surged by 51.3% in the past year alone. Let us not forget those who have been doubly victimised, with their mortgages sold to vulture funds, leaving them at the mercy of exorbitant interest rates, some as high as 10%. Sinn Féin has been advocating for months for a time-limited mortgage interest relief. The time for action is now. What course has this Government charted? It has charted a course of inaction, reducing the banking levy and thereby enriching financial institutions whose operating profits have soared by an astonishing 97% year on year. At my constituency office in County Kildare the stories pour in, with tales of despair, of families struggling under the yolk of rising mortgage and living costs and, in some cases, of those who may soon be homeless. The Government's lack of action is not merely disappointing; it is cruel.

Sinn Féin's motion lays out a clear roadmap for immediate and targeted intervention. Sinn Féin would introduce mortgage interest relief tailored to assist struggling households. It would increase the bank levy and apply proceeds directly to the provision of mortgage interest relief. It would also develop a clear plan to help bring mortgages already in the hands of vulture funds back into the mainstream mortgage market. This Government has had more than ample opportunities to offer a lifeline to families ensnared in the cost-of-living quagmire.

The era for token gestures and half measures is long past. I urge the Minister and the Government to adopt the Sinn Féin mortgage interest relief plan and provide immediate relief to homeowners and their families. I will go even further and implore the House to endorse this motion. Fluffy and all as the Minister's speech was, in describing how he got everything sorted and wonderful, he has not given me any confidence. He mentioned Pepper and I am delighted to hear that it is going to engage. I must contact it because it owns my house.

Paul Donnelly (Dublin West, Sinn Fein)
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People are struggling to pay bills and for the basics. Luxuries are something they look forward to in the future. For now, however, it is about surviving from paycheque to paycheque. People I have spoken to on the doors want the Minister to introduce targeted and temporary mortgage interest relief to support homeowners facing significant increases in their mortgages. They want fairness and a change. Sinn Féin has committed to introduce mortgage interest relief for principal private residents, equivalent to 30% of the increase in interest rates relative to June 2022, with a maximum benefit per household of €1,500.

What galls people is the massive increase in bank profits. The Irish Times wrote last week that with less than two months to the 15th anniversary of Brian Cowen's Government being forced to guarantee the Irish banking system to prevent its collapse, the two largest surviving players in the market are making the types of profits last seen during the property boom. Last week, AIB said that its net profit had jumped by 79% to €854 million, turbocharged by the ECB hiking official interest rates. Was it not a cracking deal for the private banking system all the same? Sinn Féin will increase the banking levy and we will use the proceeds from that to increase supports for households through the introduction of temporary and targeted mortgage interest relief.

The same banks that are making billions again threw many of their former customers to the vultures. Some 78,000 of those customers are paying exorbitant interest rates as high as 10%. Sinn Féin will commit to developing a clear plan to facilitate the reintegration of mortgage holders with loans held by vulture funds into the mainstream mortgage market. People say they want change but, unfortunately, if they were listening to this debate and the Minister’s speech, they will realise that he is not listening.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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The thing that strikes me about this debate is that the people who are most affected by this are among those the Government styles itself as being for. The Government styles itself as being for getting up early in the morning, aspiration and home ownership. This is how Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael style themselves. They seek to speak to the people who are affected by this, yet these are the people who are being hit from every direction. They are facing enormous childcare bills of €1,500, €1,800 or maybe even €2,000 per month, they make voluntary contributions and they have mortgages such as those described.

The Minister and I are from the same constituency and I am sure we have spoken to some of the same people who have been affected by increased mortgage repayments. I could give examples. I was looking back over emails from a woman in our constituency who has had increases of €350 in her repayments through Pepper. We will take a hypothetical example of a wife who is working in Stryker and a husband who is working in Cork City Council. Those are two good, decent, full-time, middle-income jobs. The couple is paying €1,500 per month for childcare. They have all the costs and all the stress of life. Every month, they go through the bills and figure everything out but they reach a tipping point when they are told their mortgage repayment is increasing by €300 or €350 per month. If the Exchequer saw increased costs of that scale, this place would in chaos. No family is prepared for such an increase in costs and it puts people to the pins of their collars.

I hope the Minister is listening. Clearly, the action taken thus far has not been anywhere near good enough. It has to be focused as it cannot catch everything. Trying to prioritise everything means prioritising nothing. It has to happen for those families. These are the same people who are saying they are doing everything right. They are working full-time and trying to do the best they can for themselves and their families. They have improved their education, skills and training, yet they cannot catch a break. It is vital that the Minister, in the budget, implements the proposals that have been outlined, or something like them, and gives those families a break.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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The cost-of-living crisis has significant implications for all sections of society but disproportionately affects economically disadvantaged individuals and families who are already struggling to make ends meet. Escalating energy and food costs, increased mortgage rates and spiralling rents have contributed significantly to this ongoing crisis. Economically disadvantaged individuals are particularly vulnerable as they tend to bear the brunt of rising prices for essential goods and services. Low-income households in particular spend a higher proportion of their incomes on energy and food. Increasing these costs therefore impacts on their ability to maintain a decent standard of living.

Such households may be forced to cut back on essential items or even go without them altogether. Some families may struggle with inadequate nutrition or health problems due to an inability to afford nutritious food or medical care. The impact is not merely financial as it affects their overall quality of life. The repeated increases in the main lending rates by the ECB have resulted in exorbitant mortgage repayments for many people, with interest rates increasing by up to 10% for some households. These hikes will see some households pay up to an additional €5,700 in their annual mortgage costs. All variations of mortgages, whether tracker, variable or fixed rate, have all been greatly affected by these increases. The increases are causing financial strain. Insecurity about the future and concern among families about making ends meet is taking a toll on people's mental health.

Escalating rents also make it increasingly difficult for individuals to secure affordable accommodation. Renters are trapped in a cycle of unaffordable rents, which leaves them with little or no savings and perpetuates their economic vulnerability. Previous Government assistance has provided temporary relief by helping to cover certain expenses, such as the once-off payment towards certain energy costs, but these are only stopgap solutions. Realistic, long-term policies aimed at reducing energy costs and stabilising food prices are crucial and while this is not happening the cost-of-living crisis will continue to affect people's standard of living and their mental health.

Sinn Féin has called for the introduction of a targeted and temporary mortgage interest relief that would apply only to the principal dwelling and to new and existing mortgage agreements. It is time to give homeowners a break and this measure will go some way to alleviating the acute financial distress these rising interest rates are causing homeowners.

Gerald Nash (Louth, Labour)
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I move amendment No. 1 to amendment No. 2:

To insert the following after "at their disposal":

"— calls for mortgage holders with performing loans held by vulture funds to be provided with the option to refinance those loans through the Local Authority Home Loan scheme; and

— calls for the passage into law of the Central Bank (Variable Rate Mortgages) Bill 2022".

I am pleased to speak on this motion on behalf of the Labour Party and move one of two amendments tabled in my name. This is the third motion brought to the House on mortgage interest relief so far this year. For the first time since 2013, as reported by the OECD, living standards in Ireland fell last year. This will be of no surprise to any of us as we did not need a think tank to tell us what is before our very eyes. Inflation was at 6.3% in August and was at 5.8% in July. Food prices last month were up 7.7% over the past 12 months and energy prices soared 3.4% between July and August. All told, the past two years have created real havoc for households across the country and as we know, the impact of inflation is most felt by those who can least afford it, namely those on low and modest incomes.

We in Labour were warning ahead of the October 2021 budget that inflation was starting to rise. That budget two years ago, even before the war being waged in Ukraine escalated in February 2022, was a missed opportunity to make structural changes to our social protection system and public services that would have better insulated those who have been most exposed to the cost-of-living crisis through 2022 and 2023. Government was caught napping then and the one-for-everyone-in-the-audience approach has not worked in targeting more resources to where they are needed most during this crisis. Unfortunately, it looks like the Government's scattergun approach is set to continue with budget 2024 in three weeks in that there will be more once-off payments, with many going to those who do not need them. As Central Bank officials told me yesterday at the Committee on Budgetary Oversight, these will add anything from 0.2% to 0.7% to an already crippling inflationary environment, the greater burden of which is carried by those who are on low and fixed incomes. I am referring to those who are already poor, already struggling and those who are experiencing a permanent cost-of-living crisis.

On top of all this, we have an unprecedented series of ten interest rate increases to the main lending rate by the ECB since July 2022. The motion coherently sets out the impact these rate rises have had on holders of tracker mortgages, variable rate mortgages and those who had their mortgages sold from under them to vulture funds. Tracker mortgage holders, who had a good thing for years, are now paying thousands of euro more to their bank each month compared with this time last year. I had a message a few minutes ago from a constituent. Herself and her husband work. They live in a three-bed semi-detached house with their three children and are paying €600 to €700 per month more than they were previously. Those are quite extraordinary figures.

Our variable rates were until recently on average the second-highest in the eurozone. Homeowners on such rates hope that after every meeting in Frankfurt that their lenders might delay a little longer in adding the latest ECB hike to their monthly repayments. Most egregious of all is the treatment many of the 80,000 or so homeowners who had their mortgages flogged off to a vulture fund. They are, in some cases, paying monthly rates of between and 8% and 10%. The constituents I mentioned a moment ago are paying €600 to €700 per month more than they were. There are very few outside the top 10% of income earners who could absorb that kind of increase to their mortgage bill every month, but this is a reality now facing all too many homeowners, as the Minister well knows.

The motion calls for the reintroduction of mortgage interest relief. The motion states it is targeted and time-limited but the way it is drafted would mean several hundred thousand would gain a very significant benefit. I am not convinced this is as targeted as is being presented. The way it is designed it looks at nothing else other than mortgage costs. It is not income-related and there are no assets or means tests involved in the design. I am not saying anything new when I say I and my colleagues in the Labour Party are for good reason sceptical of the efficacy and equity of a policy like this. There are hosts of other ways in which the State can assist those who are genuinely struggling to make their mortgage repayments. According to the media, consideration is being given to a revised mortgage interest supplement payment proposition, for example. This may have some merit and I look forward to seeing how this initiative evolves, if is to evolve, in the coming weeks.

A promise made to the 78,000 people who have their loans with funds was broken. They were told they would be no worse off than they were when their loan was being serviced by PTSB, AIB or Bank of Ireland, but that is manifestly not the case. The promise was broken. These mortgage prisoners need to be released from their purgatory and allowed get on with their lives. I note the recent moves to encourage those with performing loans to go back, potentially, to the main banks, but I also note how tightly that framework is structured. We should consider a super levy on the extraordinary €5 billion of profit in our banks if they do not play ball in welcoming back those whose loans they sold from under them. Let us make the imposition of a super levy dependent on the banks' social performance. They have a responsibility in this regard and they should be made to own and manage that responsibility. I agree the bank levy should be extended and expanded and have a further proposal to make, as is reflected in our amendment. The Government should extend the levy by all means and use the revenue generated from the new levy, or the extended levy, to provide the resources to our trusted local councils to refinance performing mortgages currently being serviced by vulture funds at a fair interest rate and under fair terms. This would represent a significant State-led solution and would allow for the exorcising of ghosts that have been haunting families for 14 to 15 years, in some cases. It is these mortgage holders who are especially deserving of our full attention and who are entitled to a holistic, comprehensive solution from their Government, once and for all. We have, as I said, proposed this by way of an amendment.

In conclusion, I again call on the Minister, as our second amendment proposes, to support the passage into law of Labour's Central Bank (Variable Rate Mortgages) Bill 2022. He will be very familiar with that legislation indeed. It draws very heavily on a Bill he tabled when in opposition. It sets out objective and robust criteria where, under certain circumstances, high variable mortgage interest rates could be capped. The Minister was the mortgage holder's friend when in Opposition. If he was not championing the return of mortgage interest relief, he was deriding high interest rates at a time when rates were much lower than they are now. Labour's amendments would make a very real and sustainable difference to those who are genuinely struggling with their mortgages and we have a responsibility to act definitively, comprehensively and holistically, once and for all, in that regard.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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I am glad to have the opportunity to speak in this debate. I welcome the motion because it is certainly a time when so many households are struggling with the high cost of living, including the spiralling cost of housing. In particular, we know that many mortgage holders are being pushed to the pins of their collars and that has to be addressed in some way. I am not necessarily saying that it should be addressed in the way the motion outlines proposals in that regard, but it needs to be addressed and we need to hear fairly soon from Government with regard to its intentions.

Last month's Central Statistics Office, CSO, consumer price index found that mortgage interest costs rose by a staggering 51% in the previous 12 months. The last thing mortgage holders needed was a tenth consecutive interest rate hike. At this stage, one would have to seriously question the European Central Bank's, ECB's, approach to rising inflation. Interest rates are now at their highest since the creation of the euro with the eurozone economy teetering on the edge of recession.

What has the impact of the ten interest increases over the past year or so been? We know the contribution of those interest hikes has been approximately 18% to the level of our inflation. This is a measure that is supposed to reduce inflation yet it is contributing 18% to our inflation rate as a result of increased house prices. I accept that the measure is having an impact in terms of slowing the increase in house prices, and we saw figures that came out in just the last few days. For the very many people who are already purchasing homes and have mortgages, however, it is having a hugely negative impact on many families' disposable income. That has to be borne in mind. It is not just about a theoretical approach to inflation. The actual practical impact of the ECB's policy is really hurting people very badly and that should be recognised.

The other point it is important to make is that the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, recently reported on our inflation rate and concluded that approximately 50% of our inflation rate is down to increased company profits. What is the Minister doing about that? That is a huge driver in inflation in this country. I am not aware of the Minister doing anything of any great significance with regard to tackling those ballooning profits, particularly in energy companies but in so many other companies as well. In this context, there is a need for a debate around the most effective and fairest ways to help struggling householders, including mortgage holders. As I have said many times, and as the Social Democrats have been repeating constantly, the priority for Government should be to drive down the cost of housing. At no point has this or the previous Government ever set out to achieve that objective. In fact, many of the measures it has introduced with regard to housing are fuelling house prices. They are subsidies to developers and that is having the overall impact of fuelling house prices.

I can understand the temptation for some people to talk about reintroducing mortgage interest relief. I am not convinced that is the most effective or fairest intervention to make, however. My concerns remain the same, as I outlined on the two previous occasions we debated this within the past year. People who manage to get a mortgage are, it has to be said, by and large in a better situation than most of their peers, particularly renters. I am not saying for one moment that all of these people who have mortgages are well off. They are not by any means, but nor are they locked out of homeownership and forced to live with their parents into their 30s and 40s. Recent CSO data showed that homeownership has fallen to 66%, the lowest level in more than 50 years. So much for the Taoiseach talking about his party being the party of homeownership. At the same time, only approximately 50% of homes that were built since 2016 are owner occupied with a mortgage or loan. A recent ESRI report also found that of 15 western European countries, Ireland has the second largest gap in homeownership between younger and older people. Close to 80% of people over the age of 40 in Ireland own their own home while barely one third of those under 40 are homeowners. In light of these stark findings then, we must ask ourselves where support is most needed and how that support should be provided. I highlight these considerations not because I believe we should do nothing for our mortgage holders but because any intervention in the housing market should be fair and effective. In my view, mortgage interest relief is a very blunt instrument. It may assist people in the short term, but it does not do anything to help reduce the prices of houses. In fact, as I said, it contributes to an increase in the price of houses.

This motion calls for targeted mortgage interest relief, but it does not say how or at who it should be targeted. It also calls for temporary mortgage interest relief but it fails to say what "temporary" means. Undoubtedly, all mortgage holders are impacted to a greater or lesser extent by the ten consecutive hikes in interest rates. We must bear in mind, however, that a considerable number of mortgage holders are on fixed rates. That can vary for different periods but, certainly, there are a considerable number who are on fixed rates and who are not overly negatively impacted by what has happened. That does not mean they will not be impacted when their period of fixed rate changes. It is undoubtedly the case that for many people not on fixed rates, their mortgage repayments are excessively expensive. Some people can manage a higher mortgage repayment. Some people who are lucky enough to be well off can manage it. They feel it, but they can manage it. Therefore, I have to ask, should people in those very higher income brackets get relief or should they be handling it in the context of their income?

Is this the best way to spend public money then? Should it be going to everyone irrespective of the value of their property, the size of their mortgage or irrespective of their income? I do not believe it should. We also know, of course, from past experience that once mortgage interest relief is in place, it is very hard to take away. Recent media reports suggest that some form of mortgage interest relief is being considered in the context of next month's budget. If such a proposal is on the table, I would urge the Minister to ensure that support is targeted at those most at risk of losing their homes. These families and workers must be the priority as they cannot absorb any further interest rate hikes. I believe there is a case for funding this via an increased bank levy therefore making the policy a transfer from banks to customers rather than general taxpayers to homeowners. The final call in this motion regarding vulture fund mortgages is of critical importance and it is something the Social Democrats fully supports. This Government must immediately develop and implement a plan to reintegrate mortgage holders with loans held by vulture funds into the mainstream mortgage market. Earlier this month, the banking sector announced changes to the eligibility criteria for switching from a vulture fund to a pillar bank. While I welcome this announcement, including Money Advice & Budgeting Service, MABS, engagement with vulture funds, many customers will struggle to meet the criteria. They will remain mortgage prisoners. We know from analysis of Central Bank data that approximately 85,000 mortgage holders are currently customers of vulture funds. The majority, approximately 69%, are paying mortgage rates of more than 4% on average with 38,000 on average paying variable rates of 5.57%, and on top of that, they have been hit with the ECB increases over the past year.

These mortgage holders must be a priority. The Minister must force the banks to do a lot more to assist those and to take back those mortgages.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I thank Deputy Doherty and Sinn Féin for bringing forward this motion on mortgage interest hikes that are inflicting extraordinary hardship and suffering on tens and tens of thousands of homeowners and mortgage holders who are being crippled with these ten hikes over a short period of time. This has put many of them into a completely unsustainable situation about which the Government has done absolutely nothing to alleviate the suffering and hardship that they face. While there is so much we can say in here, I will say in all honesty to those who are impacted by the mortgage hike crisis and all those affected by the cost-of-living crisis, whether it is energy price hikes, the hikes in the cost of groceries, the rocketing rents that for many are now completely unaffordable for those who have been driven into homelessness with this cost-of-living and housing crises, that the best way to put pressure on the Government in advance of this budget is to get out on the streets on the cost-of-living coalition demonstration on 7 October where students, trade unionists, pensioners' groups, housing advocacy groups and many more will come out on the streets to demand the action that is necessary from this Government which it has so far refused to take.

The elephant in the room when it comes to the cost-of-living and housing crises, is that on one hand there is the hardship and suffering being suffered by mortgage holders, by people trying to pay their bills, people affected by the housing crisis, while on the other hand super profits are being recorded by the banks and the vulture funds. They are obscene, staggering profits. Bank of Ireland's pre-tax profits this year are up by 138%. This is absolutely extraordinary. Bank of Ireland, Permanent TSB and AIB reported €4 billion in profits in the first six months of this year.

We see a similar picture with the energy companies. In 2021 we were all shocked by the increase in ESB's profits to €679 million, only to see that last year they had increased to €847 million and this year they will go up even more. While people are being crucified, we are seeing a profits bonanza being enjoyed by the energy companies, the banks, by the big supermarket chains, by corporate landlords, developers and, in general, the corporate sector. There has been a quadrupling of corporate profits over the past ten years, while by some estimates average workers are down in real terms by about €10,000 a year.

I mention, for example, a taxi driver who was messaging me before this debate and whose mortgage is with a vulture fund. He is now paying an interest rate of more than 8% so his repayments have gone up by €500 a month. That is €6,000 in the year. That is on top of all of the other price hikes that we are talking about. There are tens of thousands of people now in that situation who are absolutely crucified because of the disgraceful decision to allow the banks that we bailed out to sell off tens of thousands of mortgages at a discounted price to these vulture funds that are now crucifying people and with the assistance of the European Central Bank, ECB, hiking up interest rates and crucifying people, supposedly to keep inflation down but of course if you are a mortgage holder it is a case of inflation going up. It is not going down but going up as you are being forced to pay €400, €500 or €600 extra a month in mortgage interest payments.

Sinn Féin's proposal of €1,500 mortgage interest relief obviously would be welcome relief in that context. However, we believe we should go further and that is why we have put down an amendment. Caps need to be put on mortgage interest rates to stop the profiteering of the banks. We have put forward a Bill to that effect. We also believe the vulture funds should be driven out of the Irish market. All of those loans that never should have sold to them should be reintegrated into the mainstream system and taken over. We still have a majority shareholding in AIB and Permanent TSB. These should become public not-for-profit banks. Those loans should be reintegrated into a public banking system where people will be given sustainable rates of interest and restructures that they can actually manage that will ensure they can keep the roof over their heads and they are not being crucified in the interests of banking profits or other corporate profit-hungry interests. Those things can and should be done.

I doubt the Government is going to do it because in the end it seems more interested in protecting the banks and the big corporate interests. I asked Gabriel Makhlouf at the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach today why could we not cap mortgage interest? He said because it would affect competition in the market and we might not be able to attract more banks in. I just cannot believe that logic. Considering what competition meant during the Celtic tiger years, when all the banks, vulture funds, and non-bank entities were coming in. Did competition make things better? No, it caused a catastrophic crash. Similarly, what these vulture funds are doing now is ripping people off. They add absolutely nothing to the banking sector.

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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There have been ten ECB interest hikes. It has gone from 0% to 4.5%. Before this latest increase, some 20% of mortgage holders are estimated to lose €3,000 this year. A further 20% are estimated to lose €5,700 a year. Mortgage holders are being put on a rack and stretched. At the same time the banks make combined profits of more than €5 billion.

This Government has refused temporary mortgage interest relief to date and reduced the banking levy last year. The motion proposes that this should be reversed. I support that. The amendment states that mortgage interest should be capped at 3%. I support that. The privatisations should be reversed. One cannot have a fair system on the basis of banking for profit. We need a nationalised banking system run in the interests of the people, not the way it was done when it was last nationalised.

As it is the first day back to the Dáil, and as the countdown to a general election has clearly begun, it is appropriate to ask some questions of the party that is proposing the motion and putting itself forward to lead the next Government, namely, Sinn Féin. It is clear that large numbers of people, in part because of this mortgage issue, especially working-class people, want rid of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael, which have again and again supported the millionaires over the millions in Irish society as shown by this issue, as with many others. It is also clear that large numbers of ordinary people are investing their hopes for social change in Sinn Féin. People want to see a massive increase in the supply of housing, especially social and affordable homes. People want to see strong investment in public services that are currently neglected, such as health education and childcare, and a radical reduction in the huge levels of inequality within our society.

I would say to Deputy Doherty that his party's stubborn refusal to rule out a deal after the next election with the parties that have presided over these injustices, namely, Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael, is cause for concern for many who want real change. Why not shut this door unless they are actually prepared to go through it? Those looking for radical change will also be concerned when they see headlines such as "Softer Sinn Féin moves to the middle to win power" and "Sinn Féin quickly jettisons controversial policies as power beckons", both from The Irish Times this summer.

Of course, that newspaper may not be entirely fair to the Deputy's party, but the headlines are backed up by ample evidence, not least the party’s series of ongoing meetings with the top brass of Ireland Incorporated. Major change cannot be delivered for working class people unless we are prepared to make real inroads into the profits and incomes of those at the top of society and use that wealth to effect change. That is the James Connolly way.

I would love to see Sinn Féin rule out deals with Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael and pledge to go after this wealth, but until such time as I see Deputy Doherty’s party do that, I will ask hard questions of it as this general election draws nearer.

Seán Canney (Galway East, Independent)
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I welcome the motion from Sinn Féin and am glad to get an opportunity to speak on it. The banking system in this country has gone back to the way it was before this country bailed out the banks. They are making massive profits on the backs of ordinary people, that is, brave people who decided to buy or build a house, people who work and provide tax in this country, and people who have not asked the State to help them in any way. I refer especially to people who bought a second-hand house as their first house. They never got the benefit of the help-to-buy scheme or of any other scheme, and now they find themselves month on month having to face a higher bill to keep the roof over their heads. We talk about people who get up early and go to work. These are the people who are keeping this country going and providing the economic dividend for the State to have so much money in its coffers at the moment.

I have called for mortgage interest relief to be brought in but have said it should be made available for this year, 2023, to mortgage holders. I do not believe there is a big price to be paid for this, because if we do not help people who are under pressure financially due to having decided to put a roof over their own head rather than wait for the local authorities to do it for them, we are going nowhere. I agree with the sentiments of a number of Deputies who talked about the banks selling off mortgages in bundles to vulture-type operations that have spent the past eight to ten years sucking payments from people, yet the interest rates go up and the capital is not going down, and they have made people prisoners in their own houses, with a threat every month that if they do not pay up, they will lose their house. I thought that kind of stuff had gone away. I thought the banks had said they were sorry for all they had done wrong. We bailed them out, and we are back at it again.

I reiterate that first-time buyers who bought second-hand houses have received nothing from the State. They have paid their taxes on these houses, all the registration fees and so on, even having put money into refurbishing their houses. They now need something, and now is the time for the Government to step up and do it. In fact, they have paid stamp duty and everything else, and they have been more or less left there as though they are not relevant at all in this matter. These are the same people who put their children through college and pay for it themselves because they work. They pay for everything and this is just one call they are looking for.

It is important we do this now and do not dilly-dally with it. The Government has an opportunity in the budget, which is coming up in three weeks, but it should not take a half-baked measure on it or a spin on it or tell us it will sort out the issue next year or the year after. This is immediate. People are waiting for relief and we need to give it to them. So many people who have come into my office would surprise the Minister of State with the stress they have from the cost of living. These are people who might have a house and cars and travel to work - everything looks fine - but when they tell you their story about their financial position, there are no savings and everything is being looked at.

There is an onus on the Government to make sure we sort this out for these people and that we also put manners on the banks once again. It is high time that was done, because if they get away with this and with the profits they are making, they will get away with other things in the future. We should have learned a lesson when they went bust and when they came crying and looking for money and we gave it to them. Now is the time for payback. Now is the time for them to admit they have been doing wrong over recent years, making enormous profits, and say they are going to give back those profits in a windfall tax to the State. If they do not do that, other measures will have to be taken to deal with the banks. They have gone wild again and it is time to put them in their place.

Richard O'Donoghue (Limerick County, Independent)
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A €250,000 mortgage is, in today's terms, a small mortgage. The VAT of 13.5% on €200,000 amounts to €23,788.55. The VAT on the other €50,000 of the mortgage stands at 23%, amounting to €9,349.60. That equates to a total of €33,138 in tax that the Government is taking off a person on their mortgage. If we then look at the contractor who has to build that house, the average tax he or she will pay on that is €10,204, which means that on a €250,000 mortgage, the Government takes in tax €43,342.15. Moreover, in order for a couple to qualify for that mortgage over 25 years, they will have to pay annual tax of €12,792. Over 25 years, that amounts to €319,800 in tax for a person who wants to build a house for €250,000. We are talking about mortgage relief here.

The Government is taxing them out of existence. It is not only the banks that are the problem; the Government is the problem. This is before we consider the cost of living. The Government is charging people 50 cent on every drop of juice going into their cars. On everything the Government is taxing them out of existence.

There is no reward in this country for the person who works - no reward. Your only reward is tax. Even when you come to end of your days and you want to go to a nursing home, if you have any few bob in the bank, the Government makes you spend your own money up to a certain cap. Even if people wanted to leave it to their children or grandchildren to give them a start into the next generation, it is taxed. It is not only the banks that are ripping off this country, it is also the Government in tax.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I, too, can see that people are being robbed blind with tax, but the banks are getting away with murder. They are in bed with Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and the Green Party. I cannot believe that after the bailout and the misery and persecution they put on people, the banks are back now doing the very same again. What is the Government doing? As I said previously to the Ceann Comhairle, the Government is rubbing a sow to a fat pig's you-know-what. That is what it is.

I am disappointed. I have criticised other Ministers as well so I will criticise my namesake, the Minister, Deputy McGrath, for leaving again before we come up to speak. Our ideas do not matter. They do not matter at all. We do not matter. The Government is in concert with the banks and have let them get away with blue murder in the way they are treating families. The European Central Bank has introduced ten interest rate hikes over the past while to tackle inflation. It is failing to tackle inflation so why keep doing it? The definition of madness is to keep doing the same thing and expect a different result. That is what the Government is doing but it has no mercy for the ordinary people. Deputy O'Donoghue spoke about the tax and Deputy Collins referred to the banks not engaging, even after a good judge intervened. Many judges are not that fair to the customers and most of them are on the side of the banks too, and the vulture funds. The ordinary person has no shake-up. Is it any wonder that people are frustrated and disappointed. These are the people who get up in the morning and help themselves. They are not homeless people. They house themselves. They put their faith in themselves, got the mortgage and built or bought their own house. The Government is crucifying them every which way it can in tax and in mortgage rates.

I support the motion tonight but it is not in any way targeted. We cannot give it everyone but it should definitely be reintroduced for a mass cohort of the people who are in this situation. They cannot live. They cannot put their children back to school, college or education, run their cars and try to live. It is just not fair and it is just not right, but when will the Government wake up and smell the coffee? It will not until it is flat out on its ear.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I put to the Minister of State the enormity of what has happened to families with these mortgages rate increases. Ordinary mortgages have gone up by €400, €500, €600 and €700 per month. People have to try to come up with that extra money. They are finding it impossible. That has been well spoken about here already.

There is one thing I want to say about our banks. We must get back to the type of banking we had long ago when a person could go into an AIB or a Bank of Ireland, or any one of the other banks, and could meet a person called "the manager". This was the real person, the man or the woman who was in charge. I want to remember people like Denis Cronin and Frank McGonigle, and David Brooks, and all these great people in Kerry over the years who were the managers of our banks. They were real people standing behind the counter waiting to meet their customers, to take them into a room to discuss their issues, their difficulties and their requirements. They were kind and they were tough but they were understanding. They knew what they could do and what they could not do. There is now this thing of, "Well look, we'll take it from you and send it to Dublin and we'll see how it will get on." God protect me, I am only one small little person but the amount of times I have heard this story, "We will send it to Dublin." I say God help us because we will never again see it coming back from Dublin. If we will be waiting for a positive response, waiting we will be. Give those people autonomy of their own business and make them real managers again, people who can decide "Yes, we are going to help you" and "Yes, we understand your difficulty". They will build up proper relationships. Instead we have people called managers who are not really managers because they are toothless. They do not have power because it is all centred around Dublin.

Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I am glad to get an opportunity to talk on this very serious matter before us this evening. While I welcome that Sinn Féin is bringing the motion forward, I do not exactly agree 100% that this will be targeted enough to help the people who are in trouble. What I cannot understand is that the Government is agreeing to these interest rate increases, and the Government is saying the reason for it is to curb inflation. At the same time we know that the people affected by this are on the road going to work every day and the cost at the petrol pumps has gone to more than €1.85 per litre of petrol or diesel - they are nearly all the same now. Why is some control not being put on that? No. The Government is insistent on putting it back on excise duty and increasing the carbon tax.

These same people the Government is affecting are also trying to pay the extra higher interest on their mortgages. I cannot understand that, nor when the Government allows the ECB to say it is fine because it is to curb inflation. This does not make sense to me when at the other end the very same people who are on the road in the dark in the mornings and going home in the dark in the evening are paying through the nose for the petrol and the diesel they are using. The Government is not making any sense or any logic to those poor people out there who are trying to deal with the increases.

I am asking the Government, and it had shareholdings in AIB and Bank of Ireland, why it does not intervene and intercede to ensure people get fair play. The Government has lost the run of themselves. I cannot understand and a lot more like me cannot understand that by increasing interest rates, the Government is going to curb inflation, while at the same time the Government us driving us mad with carbon tax and excise duty on top of the exorbitant cost of the base price of oil to start out with.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independents 4 Change)
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The cost-of-living crisis has not gone away. This is an ongoing crisis that has decimated peoples wages, savings and ability to make ends meet. People have seen thousands of euro extra in energy and mortgage payments, and thousands are never going to get it back. They have covered that cost by emptying their savings, putting themselves in debt, and through a massive reduction in the standard of living for many in this country. This crisis has reduced how much people can afford to eat and whether they can afford to heat their houses and heat their water. I have seen people choose between basic necessities just to get to the end of the week or the month. At least 50% of the massive inflation we have seen has been caused primarily by price gouging and profiteering. Oxfam was called this a cost-of-profit crisis. We are one of the richest countries in the world and we should not have people deciding between food and heat or between food for themselves or food for their kids. People are facing these choices knowing their savings are spent, or they have gone into big debt that they now have to pay back and their lives have got worse. People do not have anything left in the tank but food prices are still high, energy prices are still high, rents and mortgages are still going up, and this Government has no real answers to the situation and the effects this crisis will have for years to come.

In the middle of this the Government has left workers out to dry. When the Iceland retail company had Food Safety Authority problems, there were inspectors in every store the next day. When Iceland stopped properly paying the workers their wages, holiday pay and sick pay, there was no State response, no inspectors, no investigation and no reaction from the Government whatsoever. The Government stood by and let a rogue employer stiff these workers in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis because workers' rights in this country have no teeth and no enforcement. The Government has let this happen because it does not represent ordinary people. It represents the giant corporations, energy companies, big landlords, banks and vulture funds who have made billions of euro in profits while pushing people into poverty, debt and homelessness.

I support this motion from Sinn Féin. People need to know now they are getting help with their mortgages and not when the budget comes out. It is a positive contribution to give relief from the ten interest rate hikes in the past year, which have cut people's incomes by between €3,000 and €5,000 a year. I support in particular the motion's call for levying the banks to pay for this. We should be taxing any company that has made massive profits in this crisis and put this into public services and back into people's pockets as part of a workers' social wage. I support the People Before Profit motion to cap the annual percentage rate by mortgage lenders.

We will not stop the profit being made on the back of this crisis unless we stop profiteering, particularly excess profiteering, and we start to tax those profits back.

I also want to register the cost-of-living protest on 7 October. This protest will be people's opportunity to let their Government know that they want a change in politics that represents the interests of the majority, not the minority, in this country.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I welcome the opportunity to speak on the motion. This is the third such motion. They have all been ruled out by the Government's vote.

I am unhappy with a piecemeal approach to the housing crisis. I find myself unable not to support the motion, although it is discriminatory. It is not targeted, although it is calling for a targeted scheme from the Government and it does not say for how long. I have no choice but to support this, given the crisis.

The Minister confirmed in his contribution that there are more than 27,000 households in serious arrears of the 100,000 that went over to the vulture funds in the beginning. He acknowledged that an increasing number of householders will be in trouble. He set out some very minor changes that the various banking entities will take, which I welcome.

However, it has to be realised that we are in this situation because of housing policy over a long time. Since my election in 2016, I and my colleagues have repeatedly asked the Government to change its policy. I have watched documents come forward - the names of them mingle in my head - with the exact same approach, but just slightly different language, that the market will provide and when the market does not provide, as it has utterly failed to provide houses, we jump in to save it.

I have lost track of the number of schemes that this and the previous Government have brought in. The help-to-buy scheme, which the Government constantly praises, has helped. However, more than one third of the people availing of that simply did not need help. That is set out in the various analyses done on it. That is only one of the many schemes, along with the housing assistance payment, HAP, scheme, and the rental accommodation scheme, RAS, that have helped to keep the prices of houses artificially high. The price of houses is an obscenity. It is simply an obscenity that we are helping people with a first-time grant to buy houses that are €500,000. That is not sustainable. The prices of houses in Ireland, including my own, have to come down.

We need to have active engagement by the State in providing public housing on public land. We are not doing that either. We have put in another layer of bureaucracy with the Land Development Agency. We have further deprived the local authorities of their capability to use their resources to build houses, etc., and we keep doing it.

If we try to analyse that as best we can in a rational manner, the Government tells us we are against everything or we are against homeownership. I am fortunate enough to own my home. If people want to own their home, I will fully support them, but what I want from Government is a provision of choices in that we give people the choice to rent at a controlled rent as well as the option to buy houses at a reasonable price. We are not doing that.

The Government is putting more than €1 billion a year into the market - into landlords' pockets. If I mention the word "landlord", I am accused of being anti-landlord. We absolutely need landlords, but what we need is a strong policy from the Government that says a home is not something to be traded on the market. That is what we have done. We have made it into a commodity to be traded.

I support the motion. I thank the Parliamentary Budget Office, PBO, for producing a background note on the bank levy, which is very interesting. It has helped my understanding of it. The bank levy came in before my time as a TD in 2014. It was supposed to be temporary; it has been renewed since. It was supposed to bring in €150 million per year. It has not done that. It was down to €86.7 million in 2022 for various reasons, because of the way it is measured and because we allowed the banks that exited the Irish market, Ulster Bank and the other bank, be exempted from it because if the State tried to put a levy on them, they would run even quicker and leave us in a mess.

Where are we now? The PBO tells us that because of the ECB raising interest rates ten times, as has been pointed out in the motion, banks and credit institutions are making obscene profits that are not being passed on to the people who saved - there was no interest for their deposit - and they kept it. No Government has seen fit to say this is wrong. These are the banks that we bailed out. Helpfully, the PBO tells us that the bank levy was first introduced in 2014. As I said, it was supposed to bring in €150 million because of the financial crisis that the banks were an integral part of. The State decided to bring in the bank levy because it had given more than €29 billion to three banks and it had given €35 billion to the defunct Anglo Irish Bank. That is the background here that we are forgetting about in relation to why the levy was brought in. It points out clearly, as a result of the changes in the interest rate, that is absolutely helping them to make profit.

I am not an accountant and I have no financial background. I try and I read, and I struggle. What I see here is that ordinary people are caught up in an obscene game in the financial markets and where profits can be made by the ECB increasing interest rates, ostensibly, to control inflation but allowing banks to increase their profits and not pass it on, and allowing vulture funds to buy up in excess of 100,000 loans and cause absolute distress to the householders.

I am here tonight telling the Minister of State, Deputy Peter Burke, clearly that I do not like this type of motion, not that I am unhappy with Sinn Féin but that we would need this type of motion. It has to be targeted, it has to be specific but it has to be an overall package of transformation in saying that Government has the primary responsibility, both in policy and in actual houses on the ground, to determine where we are going as a country.

Violet-Anne Wynne (Clare, Independent)
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I commend the motion and the party to my left on putting it forward.

There have been a total of ten mortgage interest rate hikes in too short a time for anybody to absorb and cope with. The people affected by these hikes, in particular, those who have mortgages with vulture funds who number in the thousands of homeowners, are no doubt sitting in their own despair today. They are at their kitchen table unsure of how they will get through the next few months. Families, in particular, who have struggled with back-to-school costs, now have winter and Christmas looming over their shoulders and they need to know that there will be hope, that support is coming and exactly what that support looks like. I hope that sentiment can be appreciated by the Government as I understand it will not support the motion.

I support the motion. It is such a shame that the Government made the decision to wind down mortgage interest relief in the first place in 2021. That was a big mistake.

It is not fair on the more than 500,000 households affected by today's hike that they have to wait for the Minister to ride in here on his white horse and make the announcement on budget day that we all know is coming. People are suffering and action is required. That is why I support the motion and encourage the Government not to fight it. The only difference between doing it today and in three weeks is that the Minister is afraid that he may not get the credit for that decision. It needs to be targeted and it needs to help those who need it most and those who are most at risk.

I call on all sides of the House to support the motion and to support the people who put us here, who are struggling immensely now and for whom three weeks will seem like forever.

Peter Burke (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The Government fully accepts the increase in interest rates together with the general increase in the cost of living is causing real problems for some mortgage holders. We have addressed economic challenges in recent years, in particular, through Brexit and Covid, and we now can address the latest challenges arising from the need to tackle high inflation.

The Government is acutely aware that the rising cost of living over the past year has posed significant challenges to households and firms. We have responded swiftly and decisively on multiple occasions to help offset the most severe impacts of inflation, with particular focus on protecting the most vulnerable. Overall, €12 billion in direct relief has been made available to counter the effects of inflation.

The previous version of mortgage interest relief cost approximately €280 million in 2005, rising to more than €700 million in 2008. Therefore, the reintroduction of mortgage interest relief, even on a selective or tailored basis, is likely to involve significant cost and needs to be considered not on an ad hoc basis, but in the context of a range of cost-of-living measures being provided. The Minister for Finance and the Government have made it clear that the budget is the appropriate time to decide on how best to deploy available resources to support those affected by cost-of-living pressures.

As public representatives, we receive correspondence and representations, which outline the difficulties borrowers are now facing. These difficulties can and should be addressed in an open way by both the lender and the borrower. When proper engagement takes place on both sides, fair solutions can be reached and put in place. In response to an initiative by the Minister for Finance, the industry has brought forward some additional measures to support customers. These should now be actively implemented by various mortgage lenders and services, and have the potential to benefit some borrowers.

We welcome in particular that the main non-bank mortgage lender is now offering the possibility of fixed rate alternative repayment arrangement options to borrowers who are in the Code of Conduct on Mortgage Arrears, CCMA, mortgage arrears resolution process. On mortgage lending and switching, we have for the first time an agreed industry-wide set of initial eligibility criteria to facilitate people switching their mortgage from a non-bank to a bank. All of the banks and some of the other lenders, like Avant Money, ICS and Finance Ireland have signed on to that set of criteria, and it is an important breakthrough. It is important to send out the message that those whose mortgage is with the non-bank sector, and who feel they are a good candidate to have their mortgage switched can pursue that option. It many not be a solution for everyone, but it can be an option for some borrowers. It will now be up to the industry to demonstrate that borrowers can avail of this option.

The new measures are additional those provided for in the existing regulatory framework. The Central Bank is clear that it expects all regulated firms to be ready to assist their customers facing mortgage repayment difficulties, to be ready to work with them and, where necessary, to offer appropriate arrangements to enable them meet their mortgage obligations. This consumer protection regulatory framework is important, but it is also appropriate to keep it under review to ensure it comes to provide the appropriate protections to consumers.

The Central Bank protection code is a key part of the overall consumer protection regulatory framework. As Deputies are aware, the bank is currently undertaking a comprehensive review of that framework. Last July, the Central Bank published an update on the engagement it had so far with stakeholders and it expects to publish a consultation paper setting out the proposed changes in the code in December. Following this the Centra Bank expects to publish the revised consolidated code next year, which can be set down in regulations made by the Central Bank. The revised code will be designed from the perspective of the consumer, and consumers will be able to determine both the general protections available to them and protections specific for different types of financial services.

Separately, the Department of Finance has recently published the consumer protection roadmap. This aims to bring together in one place information on the wider range of consumer protection policies, at Irish and EU levels, and which are being developed and implemented in coming years to deal with the changing landscape of the provision of financial services.

Finally, the Central Bank consumer protection framework is also supported by further measures taken by the Government. We have introduced and implemented significant personal insolvency legislation and reform aimed at ensuring debtors can deal with their unsustainable debts in a way that will allow them to remain in their homes. If necessary, a fair debt restructuring arrangement can now be implemented against the will of the mortgage creditors subject to the approval of the court. Likewise, the Abhaile scheme, which provides free expert financial, legal advice and assistance, is in place to help borrowers in mortgage arrears. The Government recently decided to extend the scheme for a further four years. The scheme has proven critical in terms of supporting families who find themselves in serious long-term arrears and are at risk of losing their homes. More than 26,400 households have been supported since the scheme was set up in 2016. The scheme is delivering real benefit to households, and 85% of households who availed of support under Abhaile either have a solution in place or are on a path to doing so.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Deputy Doherty for this motion, and for all of the work he continues to do on behalf of mortgage holders. Earlier today, the senior Minister told us he had convened a meeting of stakeholders, who told him that there is an increasing number of borrowers encountering difficulty meeting their mortgage repayments. They also noted cases where borrowers are prioritising their mortgage payments, but that financial difficulties are arising in other areas because of this.

They are fancy words, but what do they actually mean? The truth behind the Minister's words is very grim. The financial difficulties the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael McGrath, was referring to have a human face. There are real families and real workers behind these words. They have tightened their belts. The belts could not get any tighter. There are no treats for the kids. There are no holidays. Savings are gone, if they had any. There are no days out. They have shopped around, so the Minister of State can tell the Minister of State, Deputy Fleming, to stand down. They have taken that advice. If they had any savings, they are gone. That is it. They are spent. They are literally petrified of the letter coming through the door from the bank. What they are cutting back on now are essentials.

There are more than 1,000 kids in my constituency left waiting for services from the children's disability network team, CDNT. Every day they wait, parents watch their kids fall further behind, fail to thrive and fail to meet their potential. I have met many worn out and distressed parents but one stood out for me. This person told me that because of the failure of the Government to provide her autistic daughter with any services whatsoever, she has been using her own money, which she works hard for, to subsidise this failing Government and provide services for her daughter. However, her mortgage has gone up ten times. She has cut everything. There is nothing left to cut. She has had to cut the services she provides for her autistic daughter, which the Minister of State's Government fails to provide. She provides them with money from her own pocket, and she has had to cut that because she needs to keep a roof over their head because, guess what? There is nowhere for them to go because of this Government's housing crisis. Its housing crisis, its health crisis and the cost-of-living crisis are creasing these families. They have nowhere else to go.

I ask the Minister of State not to make them wait and withdraw this shameful countermotion, and support the Sinn Féin motion.

Brian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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The situation we are in at the moment is that we have thousands of householders who are in serious arrears. I am meeting mortgage holders across Laois-Offaly, who are struggling. Some 21,400 are confirmed to be in serious arrears. Serious arrears means exactly that. Tens of thousands more are in arrears. Some households are paying interest rates of 7%, 8% and 9%. One man I met at the ploughing championships is paying almost 10% to a vulture fund. Repayments are rising by thousands of euro each year. This is happening at the same time as the banks are making huge profits - the banks that we and the taxpayer bailed out. They are making record profits. AIB profits were recorded at €1.2 billion in the first six months of 2023.

We are also in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis, with sharp increases in the cost of energy, transport and food. The Irish Times reported recently that grocery inflation is up by 11.5%. We do not need The Irish Timesto tell us this. You only need to walk into Dunnes Stores, Tesco or any of the multiples on Saturday morning and you will see it. Tesco is reporting profits on its Irish operation of €120 million. That is just in this State and not in the North. We heard a lot of hot air from the Government and Ministers, including the Minister of State, Deputy Richmond, before the summer about bringing the supermarkets to heel. What actually happened? Nothing happened. What is being done to clamp down on the price gouging by the supermarkets and the big multiples?

It is in this context of inflation and cost-of-living increases that Deputy Doherty and Sinn Féin are calling for a targeted temporary mortgage interest relief scheme. We had mortgage interest relief in the past. The current Minister for Finance called for it to be reintroduced a few short years ago. It is a scheme to support struggling households. What we are proposing will cover 30% of the additional interest paid each month, up to a limit of €1,500. For example, a mortgage holder with an outstanding balance of €200,000 with 20 years left who has seen his or her interest rates go up from 2% to 4% will now be paying €400 per month extra. The scheme we propose will provide some relief for them, and would mean an extra €120 per month, or €1,440 per year, in his or her pocket. That can be the difference between being able to survive from month to month or not being able to.

This relief would not apply to second homes, holiday homes or rental properties. It would only apply to primary residences. It is very important that it is targeted in that way. We developed these proposals in consultation with the PBO. Based on that analysis, for eight months it would cost in the region of €400 million, or €600 million in a full year. This measure is sensible. It is affordable and is costed as accurately as it can be. It can be funded by increasing the banking levy and by a portion of the massive State surplus projected this year of in excess of €10 billion. Workers and families need real support, not empty promises, and they need it now. They are in serious difficulty.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I thank all of the speakers who spoke on this motion today. Many of them mentioned that this is the third time we have had a motion of this nature before the House. Sinn Féin will continue to campaign and to put forward proposals that will provide relief for hard-pressed workers and families in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis. We are very conscious that there is a portion of workers and people out there who are suffering as a result of different inflationary costs, whether it is food, energy, petrol or diesel. It would be remiss of me not to outline the shameful decision taken by Government on 1 September to increase the price of diesel and petrol. It is planning to do so again on 11 October and again on 31 October. Hopefully it will see sense and not proceed with those increases pushing petrol and diesel close to €2 a litre if not more.

There are many pressures pressing down on families but the largest that many families have seen is the cost of maintaining a roof over their head in terms of mortgage interest. The Central Bank figures speak very clearly. There are more than 700,000 people who pay their mortgages in this State, and 20% of them will have seen an increase of €5,700 in the cost of servicing their mortgage compared to last year. That is an increase of €5,700 that hundreds of thousands of people will have seen. What has the Government done? Nothing. It has washed its hands of it, buried its head in the sand and told them to paddle their own canoe. It has come up with nothing. Last year I stood in this very spot and said that this is my proposal - if the Government does not like it, that is fine, it can come up with its own proposal. There are many ways to cut and slice this. We can make it more targeted. We can look at the allowances, look at the caps and do many things. The Government could at least come to the table with something. All of the months have passed and the Government has come up empty-handed.

In the meantime, month after month the interest rates have been increasing automatically for tracker mortgages. In the next number of days, households across the State are going to get the tenth letter since July of last year indicating that their mortgage has increased. That is ten interest rate rises for those people. I refer to the loans that the Ministers across here allowed to be sold to the vulture funds, and clapped the banks while they were doing it and would not prevent it from happening. Many people with those loans are paying 8%, 9% and 10% in interest rates now in the hands of the vulture funds and the Government has done nothing.

The first budget that Fine Gael introduced in 2012 extended mortgage interest relief. The level available at the time was 30%. It was possible to claim up to €20,000 relief. People could benefit to the tune of €6,000 in terms of mortgage interest relief. The ECB rate at the time was 0.75% and it is 4.5% today. The Minister who is in charge of all of this, Deputy Michael McGrath, in 2016 said that in the 2016 general election Fianna Fáil was the only party of which he was aware that campaigned on the basis that mortgage interest relief would be retained and provided for in budgetary and fiscal projections make at the time. He said he would have loved to see it retained at a rate of 100% but that this was the best they could negotiate. That was him talking about negotiating with Fine Gael to extend it for a couple of years. Does the Minister of State know what the interest rate was in this State in 2016 when the current Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael McGrath, said he would love to have it extended at 100%? It was zero. At a time of interest rates of zero, in Fianna Fáil's time, and of 0.75% in Fine Gael's time, the parties opposite had no problem introducing mortgage interest relief that benefitted people to the tune of thousands of euro.

We are talking now in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis when interest rates at ECB level have never been as high, ever, and Sinn Féin is proposing to take a targeted measure that only seeks to take on 30% of the increased interest and a maximum cap of €1,500. This is what is needed. Some day hopefully Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil will wake up and understand where ordinary people are at. They are so out of touch it is unbelievable. They cannot understand that people need support at this time during this cost-of-living crisis.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Minister has moved his amendment and the Labour Party has moved its amendment to the amendment. The first matter for us to consider is that the amendment to the amendment be made.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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In accordance with Standing Order 80(2), the division is postponed until the weekly division time next week.